To be annoyed/hurt by my good friend and think high earners should be willing to pay more ?

[whatislife]

i have been lurking on MN for a long time and never posted. Decided to join today and thought I'd mark the occasion with a rant.
I got in an argument with my friend (2 days ago) and the anger re-appeared when she sent me a text this morning. This doesn't really matter though.

The argument started when she made a snarky comment about an old friend of ours (not very close to be honest). The woman had been complaining about money and started ranting about high earners, tax and all sorts. My friend , a very high earner (think 6 figures), kept quiet the whole while and then started talking about it to me. This is where she said something along the lines of 'No one forced her to messed around at school and screw her life up. Im not going to feel bad because I worked hard' and 'why should I pay more tax when I already pay a ridiculous amount and she doesn't pay any'. These comments really angered me because I am also a low earner and rely on benefits - she knows this ! So we got into an argument about tax and benefits (silly i know but personal comments were also made).

My question is ; AIBU to think my close friend (and high earners in general) should realise how lucky she is and be willing to pay more tax so people like me can also have a normal life?

Cani have a list of these 6 figure salary jobs that anyone can do if they work hard? Because ive a masters degree and work really fucking hard for far, far less.

salene I am with you. I don't care about paying more because I earn more - I agree with that. What I fucking can't stand is paying more as a % - so 50% of everything I earn above £40k odd is taken off me. FUCK RIGHT OFF.

Wow - so much heat generated and hardly any light.

See Boris on growth in income inequality yesterday.

See DC on what makes the UK one of the least meritocratic societies today.

If high earners paid adequate amounts for the services provided to them by the lower paid then income inequality would be lower and there would be less need for income redistribution through the tax system.

We don't all live in the SE and so for many many the changes in tax credits will not be compensated for by HB. For every extra penny people affected by the changes in this way earn to make up their losses they will have a marginal tax/ni/tc withdrawal rate of 80%.

Op's high earning friend was vvvu to vent her spleen on the Op in this way.

Yes happygirl it really pisses my husband off too.. Working for half to be taken from him

So much so once the oil industry stabilises again we are going to move abroad to avoid uk tax altogether , the U.K. can basically kiss are arse we are out of here..!

We gain nothing from being here, we don't even use the nhs as our works pay private healthcare for us. Would not use schools as we will send our son to private school

so he is paying about £75000 a year in taxes for nothing.

No benefit to our family anyway.

Whether you realise it or not, luck has a huge amount to do with it.

On the surface, I'm a great example of pure hard work being the way out of poverty. I've come from a family where my parents have no choice but to live solely on benefits, and despite a teenage pregnancy, have come out with a first class degree and walked straight into a full time job (which I then had to quit due to a student finance cock-up, but that's an entirely different thread )

But I have been lucky. Lucky that despite not having much money, my parents sat and read to me, so that I started school able to read, and able to write my name.
Lucky that my pregnancy coincided perfectly with the timing of my uni term, so I had my baby on the last day of the university year, meaning I only had to miss that one day.
Lucky that my uni is so supportive of young parents.
Lucky that the company just so happened to be hiring at that point.

Where I'm not lucky, however, is that the Tories have now decided that under-25s aren't 'productive' enough to deserve the Living Wage - so, as well as losing over £1700 a year in tax credits, younger parents like me won't be eligible for a living wage no matter how hard and how many hours we work.

Hard work means fuck all if you haven't got at least a little luck on your side.

salene and HappyGirl I presume you mean direct taxes?

Because the lower income would then pay more pro rata in taxes on their total income.

Which is why there's an increasing percentage on higher income.

Spot on, howabout.

We're also dealing with the legacy of a giant subsidy to businesses dressed up as welfare/benefits, in the form of tax credits. Rather than setting a minimum wage that was in fact a living wage, and allowing the market to sort itself out at the points above that, successive governments set the NMW at below survival level and topped it up instead.

Meaning businesses were getting one of their principal inputs at below the cost of supply, subsidised by the taxpayer. And sold to the public so that their dissatisfaction is visited upon the wrong people.

I'm generally in favour of phasing out tax credits in favour of more sustainable wages if it's done fairly. The current approach is the opposite - removing tax credits before other inputs have stabilised (ie wages above the new NMW have sorted themselves out; a stabilising top up for those who find themselves out of pocket for a defined period, etc) - meaning the people who can least afford it are getting hit in one go.

If I had to find an extra £2k for the taxman, I could without too much hassle. Annoying but nowhere near the end of the world. I wouldn't have to switch off the heating, or see my kids go without new coats or shoes, or wonder how to pay the grocery bill.

I'm a fuckload more fortunate than people who are taking the current hit on tax credits. That good fortune is a combination of luck (good brain, good parents, OK choices, good, supportive partner) and hard, bloody minded graft after arriving in this country with two suitcases, a small amount of cash and some of the good fortune listed above. And I'm not so deluded that I can't see that.

Yes, Salene, because obviously taxes only pay for schools and healthcare.

And while I'm at it mrsdevere

I've never worked in a supermarket but I did once work in a tomato packing factory... This was before I had my daughter when I was 19 years old, single parent, went to uni and survived on £4k a year grant for 4 years before joining a financial services organisation at entry level and working my way up gradually while studying in my own time for several demanding professional qualifications. Luck? Eh no. And sorry, I don't think 'checkout targets' compare with my stress.

Well, Salene, except roads n' shit like that. The police and the other emergency services. And the knowledge that people who aren't as - dare I say it - lucky as you are get free health care and free education for their DC.

As a household, we pay a fortune in tax. Neither of us would ever deny that we've been lucky: lucky with a good free uni education, lucky with our health. But we'd never deny either that we studied hard, worked hard and planned carefully. So what matters more? Luck or hard work?

DH is about to change job. He just said to me, unprompted, 'It's ridiculous, how much I'm going to be paid for this new job.' So I asked him, 'Luck? Hard work?' 'Shit load of luck,' he said. 'Okay, I've kept up the contacts with people I used to work with [who offered him the new job], and I'm good at what I do, but, yup, luck.'

But even he, knowing that, gets a bit pissed off at times with how much tax he pays.

Moln I'm unsure what you mean..??

About lower income paying more tax pro rata.?

What's good for one should be good for another

Glad you agree, Salene. So you'd be happy for your DH's 6 figure salary (which of course "luck has nothing to do with") to be downgraded to a national average along with everyone else's then?

If high earners paid adequate amounts for the services provided to them by the lower paid ...

But even if that were possible, how far should it be taken?

Hard working manufacturing staff aren't always highly paid, so should the rich pay more for a tin of beans in the supermarket or their TV? What about the guy who comes to mow the grass ... he's probably not loaded either, so should he charge a different hourly rate to the rich? Or the plumber - ought that new radiator valve to cost more to Mr Bigwad than it does to the poor little old lady down the road?

Actually, scratch that last one; most plumbers I've known have far more money than I'll ever see

happy

You don't belive that you are equal to someone on a till, you said it yourself

You are more stressed and give more to your role

You've got no idea of the stress levels and input required of anyone else but yourself

Are you for real? You see no correlation between poverty and low educational attainment? Grow up and read something

If that was directed at me then I suggest you read what I wrote. I didn't say I saw no correlation. I asked when things changed. In my own family and community I can see many, many older people who worked or educated their way out of poverty. Now fewer people seem able to do so. Why is that? To say being born poor condemns you to stay poor for the rest of your life and there's little you can do to change that is deafetist, depressing and not a little patronising.

About lower income paying more tax pro rata.?

You've heard about things like VAT and fuel duty, yes?

And you're aware that there is no income threshold or income bands for paying these taxes, yes?

We wouldn't get free private education we would pay for it

Yes I know taxes don't just pay for health and education but they are huge benefits in the uk compared to other countries but not to us so we might as well live in another country and keep more of our salaries , that was my point jradlette

rufus as people we're equal but yes I definitely have more stress in my role, not rocket science is it?

I've had enough
I'm a high earner, currently totally skint due to ML
I already pay more in tax proportionately yet nothing is taken into account when I am paid less
I worked hard for years at an average school paid own way through uni and head down mentality
Many I went to school with took the fun options through life and don't have such a financially straightforwards time now
It's each to own
But expecting people to pay even more tax dorsnt incentivise them to do even more for less
I'm not talking about poverty and wealth, but any expectation for other people to pay more is unreasonable - we should be in a caring culture where people want to try their best for themselves and be the best they can be

Which part don't you understand?

In a nutshell everyone paid 20% direct tax as you proposed then those on a lower income would then (because they already do) pay a higher percentage if their income to indirect taxes, resulting in the less well off paying a higher percentage of their income to taxes.

And sorry, I don't think 'checkout targets' compare with my stress.

Yeah, but the stress of working long term in a low-status, low-autonomy, low-power position probably matches up to your stress very well indeed.

I've worked as a health care assistant as a relatively well paid doctoral-level health care professional. There were stresses in the former that don't even feature in the latter. And the stress of being "stuck" at an unappreciated level in an organisation for your whole working life is something not to be underestimated.

Sorry, as a health care assistant and as a relatively well paid doctoral-level health care professional

Moln I'm unsure what you mean..??

About lower income paying more tax pro rata.?

Simple. The higher % of your salary you spend on basics ie food, gas, water, electricity, clothing the more VAT you pay as a % of your overall salary.

That's the idea behind a progressive tax system with higher rates on income tax for higher earners to try and even out the overall % when you think of all the direct tax (VAT) which is paid.

ANOR no I wouldn't but then most national average wage jobs aren't highly dangerous , working weeks on end in sweating heat with no day off, often doing the work of numerous men , no food, Missing your family grow up while your stuck on a floating prison

Apart from our armed forces and those guys also deserve high wages it's a shame the government doesn't think so.

Ah ok thanks JR I understand now what they meant

I'm a higher rate taxpayer and have no issue with the current system.

I do have issue with those who would have me pay even more.

I also don't think that the higher rate threshold is particularly high. £45k wouldn't get you that far as a sole earner in London, for example, or if you had a bunch of kids to support.

Taxation will always be a bit of a blunt instrument sadly, with winners and losers, but it's no more accurate to suggest that everyone who earns higher rate is living the life of riley, than to say everyone on NMW works really hard or is lazy.