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AIBU?

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Original poster

To wonder why so many Scottish people a thrilled when England do badly at sport?

349 replies

Jollyphonics · 04/10/2015 14:02

I'm not bothered about the rugby at all personally, but this is irritating me. I have several Scottish friends, and their Facebook newsfeeds are full of gloating about England being knocked out of the world cup. It's a recurring theme with all sporting contests - mant Scottish people will support some random team from a country they've never heard of, if they're playing against England. I don't see the same with Wales and Ireland. Why is this? Is there that much resentment?

OP posts:
tldr · 05/10/2015 00:44

Of course we (Scots) can't just be expected to all support England - the song we sing at the start of every match is about beating English armies, FFS. We're playing a match against Samoa? Okay then, let's sing a song first about kicking England's arse. Playing Japan? Let's sing about kicking England's arse.

Kicking England's arse is fun! Since we never get to actually kick England's arse ever, (we're rubbish, we know it, there's only 86 of us and we all live on chips!) the best we can manage is a wee bit hill and glen gloating when we're looking good to make it through to the quarters and England are out already.

We have no expectation of actually winning, so for us, this is winning the RWC.

EastMidsMummy · 05/10/2015 05:31

Re: "toffs". My contention is that rugby union is a middle-class game and rugby clubs are middle-class institutions. The precise language that union is for toffs and league is for oiks is, of course, a caricature.

The fact that some working class kids play rugby and some landed gentry play football doesn't alter that fact. When did Harrow and Millfield last get a scholar in the England football team?

And, yes, private schools are clearly middle-class institutions too. That doesn't mean they won't be open to working class kids with money, but most working people can't afford to send their kids there.

Nogreymatters · 05/10/2015 06:08

East mids Mummy - you are obviously an expert on toffness in rugby clubs, how many rugby clubs have you ever been to in Wales?

EastMidsMummy · 05/10/2015 06:14

I'm talking about the class structure of rugby in England, not in Wales (as you would know if you bothered to read the thread...)

EastMidsMummy · 05/10/2015 06:20

In fact, immediately after a previous post of yours I wrote:

Rugby Union isn't a middle class game in Wales, or other parts of the world, but it undoubtedly is in England.

Bubblesinthesummer · 05/10/2015 07:02

That doesn't mean they won't be open to working class kids with money, but most working people can't afford to send their kids there.

Just a minor point. For full scholarships you don't need 'money'

derxa · 05/10/2015 07:03

It's Jimmy Hill's fault and John Inverdale's. Case closed. Grin

Nottodaythankyouorever · 05/10/2015 07:05

all you independent educators who are claiming this is not so have not mixed in very working class circles recently.

Bit of an assumption there and another stereotype

Shutthatdoor · 05/10/2015 07:06

It's Jimmy Hill's fault and John Inverdale's. Case closed. grin

Grin Grin

murphys · 05/10/2015 07:42

Well from an outsiders point of view here, I don't think that it is just rivalry between England and Scotland. It is like that with lot of countries. I think its just as these two are so closely linked and there are other issues in play here really.

Obviously being South African, I support the Boks. The rivalry between SA and Aus is quite similar.

I think to be honest England are the butt of the jokes right now due to being the hosts. Bit like we were when we hosted the Soccer World Cup and didn't make it to semi finals either.

Mytholmroyd · 05/10/2015 08:10

Private /public schools and universities actively head hunt and fund children who are excelling in sports - this is one reason so many of our top sportsmen and women went to fee paying schools not because only the rich/toffs get to make it to the top.

I have been there at competitions and residential training camps held at these schools when letters are handed out by their 'talent scouts'. I know kids offered scholarships to schools , UK and US universities based on their sporting success. One of my own DC was offered sports scholarships to two private schools and a UK university (bigger than the fees in the case of the latter - she was on the GB youth team), there were several children at her school on sports scholarships, two of her athletics friends got full scholarships to US universities and I even know a working class child head hunted by a top English public school based solely on the sporting prowess of older siblings.Confused

It happens in other sports not just rugby union. But it is based on talent and hard work not on social class - the schools want their name linked to top class sports people of the future to attract business.

Have to laugh at the assertions that grassroot English rugby clubs are full of upper class toffs - have any of you ever been to one? Hmm

Toadinthehole · 05/10/2015 08:12

Another part of the reason is a huge dose of small man syndrome suffered on a national scale. This is particularly true in Scotland, whose Calvinistic heritage makes it presumptuous to expect or hope to win anything. From that perspective, English sporting fans in general look extremely arrogant simply because they do expect their representative teams in football and rugby to have a chance at winning. Leave aside the fact that until 2010 in football and 2011 in rugby, the English national men's teams did have a shot at winning.

The one time the Scots forgot their rule of enforced humility was 1978 when their (actually very talented) football team fell foul of enormous hubris. They have never forgiven themselves for that lapse, and as a result are particularly keen to point out what they see as the same in their southern neighbour.

Add that fact to resentment at England just being so much bigger and you have a pretty toxic brew that displays itself in sour jokes, whether in victory or defeat.

And the arrogant English thing is a bit of a myth. South Africans and Australians are generally worse. Even Kiwis - though only when it comes to rugby union. They are all seriously massive loudmouths. The Welsh tend to big up a national side that historically has generally been pretty moderate, so they go on the naughty step too.

I'll let the Irish off, except that their fans tend to egg on the Scottish and Welsh rugby fraternity.

tldr · 05/10/2015 08:18

the arrogant English thing is a bit of a myth. South Africans and Australians are generally worse.

The difference being that we don't have to listen to the Australian/South African media posing as the British media, whereas we do have to listen to the English media, posing as the British media.

goblinhat · 05/10/2015 08:22

whose Calvinistic heritage makes it presumptuous to expect or hope to win anything.

Or it could be from centuries of having their arses skelped by the English.

Bambambini · 05/10/2015 08:24

I'd be interested to know how many of these scholarships go to proper working class kids from council estates or cheaper private housing estates. Would they even think to apply or still really send their kids there. We all know grammars are bursting with working class kids form the less affluent areas.

Bambambini · 05/10/2015 08:26

what's all the French hating from the English though? I moved to South of England nearly 20 years ago and this surprised me as we don't feel it in Scotland towards the French - or I never experienced it.

Liquoricetwirl · 05/10/2015 08:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Babayaggatheboneylegged · 05/10/2015 08:26

Because England are bad losers, but they're insufferable winners.

Nottodaythankyouorever · 05/10/2015 08:27

I'd be interested to know how many of these scholarships go to proper working class kids from council estates or cheaper private housing estates. Would they even think to apply or still really send their kids there

Yes they would. My DH went on a scholarship and he is about as close to 'working class as you can get'. As is my cousins son who has just started at one Wink

Shutthatdoor · 05/10/2015 08:33

I think we also need to stop thinking that it is a SE game. It really isn't. Majority of clubs aren't based in the SEast.

Wasps (Coventry)
Northampton
Newcastle
Worcester
Leicester
Exeter
Gloucester

To name but a few...

derxa · 05/10/2015 08:37

what's all the French hating from the English though? I moved to South of England nearly 20 years ago and this surprised me as we don't feel it in Scotland towards the French - or I never experienced it.
Have you heard of the Auld Alliance?

ivykaty44 · 05/10/2015 08:45

Shutthatdoor, wasps moved to Coventry from the SE only one season ago - with much contention. They are certainly not a "local" club and Coventry does have a local club strangely enough named Coventry rugby club

Bambambini · 05/10/2015 09:06

"Have you heard of the Auld Alliance?"

Yes of course, i just wonder if the english realise they are the only ones to go on about the French (don't know about the Welsh) - which scots just don't get.

CainInThePunting · 05/10/2015 09:37

Surely it's just rivalry and humour, some of it does make me chuckle.

I'm just pleased that Scotland are still in.... Not been playing too well the last few years. Sad

God, I hope I haven't jinxed it

Shutthatdoor · 05/10/2015 09:38

They are certainly not a "local" club and Coventry does have a local club strangely enough named Coventry rugby club

I am very aware of that, being from the region. Wink

It is now however being seen as a 'local' club. With record breaking sell out crowds of over 30,000