Cleaner

[UnderTheF1oorboards]

Our cleaner has worked for us for about 2 years. She comes for one morning a week. Good worker, no issues, although she isn't left alone in the house for long periods. She doesn't have a key so someone has to be at my house to let her in.

She is self-employed, not agency. I pay her the rate she asks which is a fair bit above the living wage and I also instigated an arrangement whereby I still pay her if I cancel her coming, but I don't pay her if she cancels. We arrived at this after some persuasion because I wanted to give her sick pay plus an agreed number of weeks' holiday pay like a normal British employee (she isn't British), but she wouldn't hear of it - said it would be immoral to take money for time she hadn't worked.

So this week I had to cancel because, unavoidably, I couldn't be there to let her in. I don't do this often. Under our arrangement she still gets paid for this week.

She replied with two texts in her language followed by one in English apologising, saying the others were meant for her daughter and wishing me a good day. The two texts in her language mentioned my name so out of curiosity I had them translated and it turns out her opinion of me is pretty low! I was shocked because I've always tried to treat her well.

I no longer feel like this is someone I want in my home or around my DC, especially for spells when I'm not there. WIBU to give her a month's pay in lieu of notice and fire her?

Collaborate I absolutely agree with you, a homeowner does not 'employ' a cleaner they are either 'self-employed' selling their service as a business (as they legally should) or working 'under the radar' and not paying tax on their income.

In either circumstance they are not an employee of the homeowner and are responsible for setting their own rates and deciding what their service will and won't include, they are responsible for communicating these effectively at the point where they come to meet you and hope to sell their services to you.

You are not responsible for paying their holiday and sick pay or maternity entitlements, these are statutory entitlements of employees, not a self-employed service provider who sets their rate accordingly, it is up to them to charge out a fee which takes all this into consideration plus their travel time between jobs and mileage, plus insurance and other business costs ie if the supply chemicals and equipment etc. They should ensure that they are left with a living wage after their business costs and charge accordingly, ie NOT £10 per hour it doesn't work on that.

You are also not responsible for withholding their income tax or NI contributions, they are accountable for taking care of these for themselves.

Cancellations are a separate issue from statutory rights and should feature within the terms and conditions set by the service provider at the original meeting. She should explain her policy on these issues either verbally or in writing. If she charges for cancellations then that is what happens going forward and if she doesn't charge these then you don't pay.

If she were an employee I don't think this would count as gross misconduct and would require the disciplinary route of written warning for insolence I wouldn't risk firing my staff for this rudeness without a warning, although I would want to, but here she is not an employee but a private business and her customer service skills have found her lacking. The trust has now gone and you have no ties or obligations at all.

The thing is nobody must worry if they don't want to use a service provider any more.

It doesn't matter if its a regular cleaner or not there is no employment, you are simply using a service, or not. You don't have to issue warnings or write them up and issue further warnings like you would an employee, you just take your custom elsewhere.

If they serve you well treasure them but if they cause offence or provide poor standards of either cleaning or customer service, vote with your purse!

I run a dog walking service rather than a cleaning service, but the way it works is very very similar - we have keys, we do stuff on a weekly basis, blah blah. We expect 24 hours notice of cancellation (although if it's because of a crisis like sudden illness, in practice we wouldn't charge).

I wouldn't dream of writing my opinion of some of my clients down. In fact, we're very lucky, virtually all our clients are lovely, and the ones that aren't lovely tend to find that we're sadly fully booked next time they try to make an arrangement...

I certainly wouldn't feel happy with someone who'd spoken like that of me in my home, whether I was present myself to supervise or not.

You are of course well within your rights to sack her… but I think people are being very naive if they don't realise this is very common, and I say this as someone who has been employed in this capacity and who is also an employer of this kind… well get on really well but I would be deluded if I thought there had never been an occasion when I had frustrated them and they'd had a rant about me to their partner/ best mate/ parents/ siblings/ kids, no matter how professional and kind I think I am! Sorry, but that's the way it is… your cleaner/ au pair/ nanny etc. will have a largely unreasonable rant about you to someone they think will understand they are having a rant and maybe say, 'yeah, what a cow' but in reality will take it all with a pinch of salt. She was frustrated at the last minute nature of the cancellation because she's self-employed and could have used the time to earn more money elsewhere and, let's face it, you might be paying her fairly for market rates but it's hardly a high-earning job and she wants to utilise her time during working hours to maximise her income as much as possible.

I can see that point, laurlerf but it's a little bit different from an employee moaning about her boss because she is a cleaning service and should be representing her own business better than that.

We are a cleaning service too and have over 70 clients and there would be few and rare occasions which I think would warrant the cleaning staff to badmouth the clients they attend, I wouldn't wish to hear it if they did, and the OP here has been very reasonable with this cleaner and has not really put her out at all if you think about it. I'm sure most cleaners would feel fond of the OP, given what we know from her posts, and would not wish to say anything negative about her.

I just think things like badmouthing clients for no real reason lowers the standards of the industry and for that reason I feel personally a little intolerant of the attitude the cleaner expressed.

They wouldn't "badmouth" the clients to you dangly, but of course they are badmouthing the clients on few and rare occasions, privately, to their loved ones and no one else. Badmouthing to other clients (under any circumstances) or badmouthing to the agency unless there's a real reason… wholly unacceptable.

In this case she screwed up by texting the OP by mistake rather than her daughter, so the OP is well within her rights to sack her but let's not pretend that some private frustrated ranting in these circumstances is not common or even understandable… it's not easy being a household employee. It's ridiculous not to expect household employees to let off steam privately to their own family… employers aren't shy of having largely unreasonable rants about their household employees!

Her loss, she should not have bitten the hand that fed her, and bloody well at that. I would tell her directly that you know exactly what her texts say, that you are disappointed as you felt you had a good working relationship, and that she would still be paid even if you cancel, so more fool to her. I would not pay her anymore, as she treated you very badly.

But she isn't an employee she is running a business as a self-employed person, I know that employees, do that and I know ours will too but to me it seems different when you are trading and surely wish to be perceived as a top class service. I just disagree with it in these circumstances, it's unprofessional when she represents herself this way.

Hey funnily enough though laurlerf I just put this issue to DH (who is a partner in our cleaning business) and he agrees with you not me, he says it's probably more normal than we'd like to think. We are a private company and employ our cleaning staff directly and we train them in acceptable attitudes not just cleaning methods but DH agrees that in privacy of their homes they will not like all of of our clients and say so to their family now and again.

I don't know what to think now (again), but it's an interesting thought-provoking thread for me!

Obviously the OP had to decide how she felt and act accordingly because, although the rants were not meant for her eyes, she did see them and given she did nothing wrong, she would have felt very hurt by these, I know I would.

The thing about the cleaner/client relationship is that the service is so personal and takes place within the home of the client, discreet behaviour is to be expected and counted on and the trust cannot be broken either way.

The cleaning service relies upon trusting that the client will pay for services, prepare the house for cleaning and allow cleaning to take place without obstruction when they arrive and the homeowner trusts that the cleaner/s will provide good service and keep certain things they see to themrselves if these are of a sensitive/private nature. The fact this cleaner has said these things shows a lack of repsect for this dynamic and I can't see how it could go forward after that. After all OP is only human and it was rather hurtful of the cleaner.

Just read your update, your well rid op, no wonder she was silenced. I would not give her a good reference, why, she behaved badly towards her employer for no reason at all. what if she does that to the next client. I would give her an honest reference, next time she knows to keep her mouth shut if she wants to continue employment.

we may well have all said things like that about our bosses, but if we texted those things to the boss, then we would be fired.

Yes in future, she will learn to be more careful, if she wants a job. Op sounds quite reasonable and generous.

Lots of confusion about employment status on here.

The cleaner was self employed. As a self employed person (or contractor) you set a rate that covers holidays, possible sick pay , tools etc and that is what you charge your clients. You agree a contract with the client- so it could be a minimum of 52 weeks a year, in which case the client must pay you even if they don't need you or it could be that you agree not to go and so not to charge when they are away. It could be that up to xx days a year is agreed and you are only called upon and so only paid when needed.

The OP is NOT an employer and the cleaner is NOT an employee. The contract is the key. The OP did not sack the cleaner, they terminated the contract. You can't sack someone that you don't employ. Whether the OP was allowed to do that would depend on what the contract stated. She may be liable to pay compensation for a breach of contract if it was ended without the agreed notice.

I'm really sorry to be as blunt as this but it's possible that (to the cleaner) the OP is just annoying.

Sorry OP.

I'm sure you're lovely. I'm a home carer. I like most clients. Some annoy me. They can be nice but annoying. It probably has nothing to do with anything you've done work wise.

But parrot she called her 'a parasite'. That's a bit worse than 'annoying'!

Yeah but you do tend to insult people who annoy you

Oh blooming heck, do you know what - even I don't know what I think any more!

parrot next time she will have toleSrn to be more careful, or she will end up the same way again. She does sound unprofessional, I could not continue to employ someone who spoke like that of me.

parrot next time she will have toleSrn to be more careful, or she will end up the same way again. She does sound unprofessional, I could not continue to employ someone who spoke like that of me.

The OP does not employ her. She contracts her to provide a service. Whether or not the OP acted reasonably in terminating that contract would depend upon its terms.

I think you have done the right thing OP. She's unprofessional., I would lose trust, respect and any liking I had for her.

I'm as thick-skinned as they come and I'd fire her. The initial bungle with the insulting texts was bad enough, but her dishonest, backpedaling, term-of-endearment-in my country-honest bullshit would seal her fate. I can't stand oily fucks who try to wriggle their way out of stuff instead of doing the right thing by just owning it and apologising.
After two years of employment that text was never going to go down well. It's her own fault.

I entirely agree pictish, imagine that happened in a company and that was sent accidently by an employee to their boss, I cannot imagine anything other than immediate dismissal.

It was unprofessional and might might be seen as gross misconduct.

If one of our staff did it about me I would want them out of my company but since I employ them, I would have to give them a warning and a write up first, you have to be very careful when firing someone instantly without giving them a chance to improve. I read a sample case where a pub landlord lost a tribunal hearing where he fired a bartender for swearing at him and his family and having his mother in tears after the abuse. He apparently should have given warnings and chance for improvement before taking the nuclear option of firing on the spot.

Anyway luckily that doesn't matter because, as many have pointed out, happily for the OP the cleaner is self-employed therefore OP is not employing her therefore has none of the responsibility towards her that a boss would, she can terminate service immediately without any recourse from the cleaner (unless a contract states otherwise but most domestic cleaners don't contract you in, even Molly Maid don't make you sign a contract!)

No need for any procedures whatever she decided.

It was unprofessional and might might be seen as gross misconduct.

The cleaner is self employed. It would only be gross misconduct if her own business had that defined as gross misconduct- which would be highly unlikely - especially if she is the only employee. You can't really sack yourself if you are self employed, although some self employed people employ others who they could dismiss and so may have gross misconduct defined.

That sums it up tedhis - the client hires us (the business) and we employ the staff who work under our terms, not the clients', we are responsible for health and safety etc and cleaning staff must follow our training, clients are not allowed to order additional services from the staff they must order work through us, we need to provide good service or the clients wouldn't buy it, that's it in a nutshell.

The only person doing any employing is me and if I had no staff nobody would be 'employed' at all. Clients can let us go whenever they like given we don't have them sign a contract. I, however, cannot get rid of my staff on an implulse, I have to follow the procedures I set out within their contract of employment and staff handbooks, as per the law.

There is no reason under the sun why a client would bother to employ a cleaner. Lucklily for clients, cleaners are independent contractors running their own small business.