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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Cleaner

152 replies

UnderTheF1oorboards · 03/10/2015 01:16

Our cleaner has worked for us for about 2 years. She comes for one morning a week. Good worker, no issues, although she isn't left alone in the house for long periods. She doesn't have a key so someone has to be at my house to let her in.

She is self-employed, not agency. I pay her the rate she asks which is a fair bit above the living wage and I also instigated an arrangement whereby I still pay her if I cancel her coming, but I don't pay her if she cancels. We arrived at this after some persuasion because I wanted to give her sick pay plus an agreed number of weeks' holiday pay like a normal British employee (she isn't British), but she wouldn't hear of it - said it would be immoral to take money for time she hadn't worked.

So this week I had to cancel because, unavoidably, I couldn't be there to let her in. I don't do this often. Under our arrangement she still gets paid for this week.

She replied with two texts in her language followed by one in English apologising, saying the others were meant for her daughter and wishing me a good day. The two texts in her language mentioned my name so out of curiosity I had them translated and it turns out her opinion of me is pretty low! I was shocked because I've always tried to treat her well.

I no longer feel like this is someone I want in my home or around my DC, especially for spells when I'm not there. WIBU to give her a month's pay in lieu of notice and fire her?

OP posts:

TondelayoSchwarzkopf · 03/10/2015 20:05

Paying a booked service provider when you cancel at short notice is not 'kind and generous' it is just what is done. Hotels, dentists, hairdressers etc all operate this policy. Why is a cleaner any different? I can see why she is pissed off to be honest.

Although given you both clearly dislike each other a good resolution all round.

PurpleDaisies · 03/10/2015 20:19

It is annoying to have work cancelled at the last minute if you've got an offer of more work. It is bloody hard being self employed and with the uncertainty of exactly how much you're getting paid every week you really have to push for every hour you can get. And I resent the implication further up the thread that everyone who gets paid in cash is going to fiddle their taxes.

Obviously the cleaner's texts to the op were out of order, but who hasn't moaned about their boss to a friend? It is totally justifiable to let her go but I do feel a bit of sympathy for the cleaner for being a bit unlucky with her grumpy texts going so badly awry.

I still wonder about this parasite thing. It doesn't seem to make any sense at all which makes me think either the cleaner has no idea what it means or it is a mistranslation.

PegsPigs · 03/10/2015 20:28

She bitched to her daughter about short notice cancellation which meant she didn't need to travel in from a long way away but STILL got paid? She's BU! I'd get a replacement then fire her. By text in her own language!

Booyaka · 03/10/2015 20:46

We don't know what culture the cleaner is from or exactly what was said so no, dangly. But just as an example, someone French could have said their boss should 'fou le camp' which would be translated as 'leave the camp' and fairly innocuous when what they actually meant was closer to 'my boss should fuck right off'.

TestingTestingWonTooFree · 03/10/2015 21:34

No need for her to be pissed off. I once arrived at work and was phoned (while sat in the car park) to say I wasn't needed that day. I knew I'd be paid anyway so I was bloody delighted. Yanbu. Her explanation after the event doesn't ring true.

wiltingfast · 03/10/2015 21:44

You are overreacting

You are here after all mouthing off bitterly about her

We all mouth off from time to time, especially to someone we trust in s moment of anger

She clearly needs the job and the text clearly wasn't meant for you

You say you treat her fairly but essentially there is actually nothing wrong with her work and you are firing her because of own private feelings. They are probably not about you btw, just an expression of the overall frustrations and difficulties she faces every day. No doubt you will appear v privileged to her.

The kind thing to do here would be to pretend not to have noticed and carry on as usual.

Bottlecap · 03/10/2015 21:46

I'm amused by all these serene posters who feel it's snooping to translate a text inadvertently sent to you that features your name.

I'd fire her and not look back. You should pay her if you cancel, and you do, but at the same time she should be happy (wouldn't anyone be? I'd be delighted!) and not complaining about short notice. Short notice is rather the crux of the paid non-work here.

wowfudge · 03/10/2015 21:48

Booyaka I have never known that to be translated literally!

I wouldn't want her in my house again after showing such contempt for me. She screwed up and shouldn't be surprised to lose the job.

Bottlecap · 03/10/2015 21:52

Well, I agree with you that it's not "kind and generous" but I bet a lot of people have a difficult time extracting payment for work cancelled at short notice. But no matter, it's merely the right thing to do.

That said, please explain why she should be pissed off? I am confused. I'm under the impression she had not even left her house.

PurpleDaisies · 03/10/2015 21:59

In one of her later posts the op said the cleaner had been offered other better paid work at the same time she should have been with the op so if the cleaner had known she could have accepted that. The cleaner never intended to complain to the employer-she thought she was whinging to a friend. Who hasn't done that?

As I said before I think the op was justified in firing her but I do feel a bit sorry for the cleaner.

Booyaka · 03/10/2015 22:45

wowfudge, it was just an example of how things can change in translation.

I think the OP was justified in sacking the cleaner too. Having somebody clean your house is a job which involves a huge, huge level of trust. Having someone have that level of access to your most private spaces means that if you get to the point of feeling uncomfortable with someone it just can't continue.

The only thing I said was that up until this point she had been happy with the standard of her work so I thought that although the OP was right to terminate the employment she should probably agree to provide a reference for her work to date given the circumstances.

MoonSandwich · 04/10/2015 00:09

I am sweet as pie to everyone in personbut my DDs and I have a sense of humor sometimes. We have private jokes about people. I'm careful never to put anything rude in any text or. Email but I could imagine joke slagging someone off in a similar way as the cleaner did. I think you were wrong to take it so literally without speaking to her .

I think dealing with this by text is a bit unfair.

merrymouse · 04/10/2015 06:55

The op did contact her.

Bottlecap · 04/10/2015 07:10

I am sweet as pie to everyone in personbut my DDs and I have a confused sense of humor sometimes. We have private jokes about people. I'm careful never to put anything rude in any text or. Email but I could imagine joke slagging someone off in a similar way as the cleaner did.

So you're nice to people, but you slag them off behind their back. And you draw your daughters into this. Why not distance yourself from people you don't like, and try to maintain some consistency in your life?

Whenwillwe3meetagain · 04/10/2015 07:27

Um should I pay the cleaner when I'm on holiday? I give plenty of notice so she could get other work but don't pay her for not cleaning....

Lweji · 04/10/2015 07:45

I think it depends. She may factor in holidays on her pay rate. Or she may get extra work when other cleaners are on holiday.
I pay holidays and if I cancel. I think it's fair, as it works like a regular arrangement and not random hours.

Bottlecap · 04/10/2015 08:25

Um should I pay the cleaner when I'm on holiday? I give plenty of notice so she could get other work but don't pay her for not cleaning....

If you're in a position to take on domestic help, you're in a position do it properly. They will be relying upon the income.

merrymouse · 04/10/2015 08:45

Depends on the agreement. Generally if you are paying for somebody's regular availability at a certain time you pay them whether or not you need them or you lose that slot.

Collaborate · 04/10/2015 09:01

Do you still pay the milkman when you're on holiday? Absolute nonsense. A cleaner is no different to the person who you pay to clean your car, cut your hair, or provide any other service for you. Why doesn't everyone understand the difference between someone you imply and someone who sells a service to the general public?

Lweji · 04/10/2015 09:08

It's easy to understand the difference between a cleaner you expect to be there at a certain time and work a certain numbee of hours every week and a hairdresser you have to book each time you go.

As for the milkman it's obvious the amount of milk varies. You may need more or less each day/week. But if you have a newspaper subscription you still have to pay whether you are there to receive it or not.

For the cleaners, entirely up to the cleaner and the employer, but if it's that casual, then I wouldn't be upset if they kept changing hours or dropped me without warning or having to book with them every week.

MoonSandwich · 04/10/2015 09:13

Bottlecap I dont 'slag' people off but I have been known to have a joke about someone with my DDs - for example I have a good friend who is a terribly nervous driver and we've made jokes about her 'behind her back' - no malice involved

Collaborate · 04/10/2015 09:59

Lweji - but that leads to a blurring of the boundaries and creates obligations in relationships that ought not exist on the first place. Hence posters on this thread speaking of "gross misconduct", minimum wage, and the cleaner being "fired".

The problem is that a true employer will be responsible for paying PAYE tax, reporting to HMRC, paying NI, sick pay, maternity pay and all other employee rights. It is reasonable for a self-employed cleaner to expect to be paid if they are cancelled without sufficient notice. I don't think it reasonable for them to expect to be paid when they are on holiday.

I used to go to a guitar tutor. I paid him per lesson. Both he and I would have been aghast had someone expected me to pay him for lessons he couldn't make because he was on holiday.

Lweji · 04/10/2015 10:07

Fully agree that it's a grey area. And it's something that should be agreed with the cleaner from the start. I tend to err on the side of generosity. I don't criticise those who don't, but also don't think it's as clear cut as just a service like a hairdressers. Just explaining why I prefer to pay.

Lweji · 04/10/2015 10:12

I don't think it reasonable for them to expect to be paid when they are on holiday
The pp had said when she was on holiday, not the cleaner, who presumably was available, but might actually struggle to find alternative appointments due to the nature of the job.

Like I said, it could be factored in the payment. And the cleaner knowing a certain period won't be paid can save up to compensate. It all depends on the initial arrangements.

Collaborate · 04/10/2015 10:30

Like I said, it could be factored in the payment. And the cleaner knowing a certain period won't be paid can save up to compensate. It all depends on the initial arrangements.

Agreed.

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