To request that all parents please ask

[SunshineAndShadows]

... Before you let your child loose on a strange dog!

I was just out with my two hounds, both friendly beasts but bouncy when out walking and neither enjoy contact with children as they've had unpleasant DC experiences and will avoid them as much as they can.

Both dogs off lead but under control by me when I see a nearby mum release her toddler (very small, no older than 2) in my direction. He toddles forwards and I put a hand on each dog's collar so that I have full control (no time to clip on leads) and mum cheers him on.

I eventually have to do a crazy toddler knee block whilst holding both dogs and saying 'no' very firmly, which stops him in his tracks. Mum then comes over and stands there expectantly. I was wordless with astonishment and eventually she pulled him away saying 'oh dear, the doggies don't want to play'.

I felt like asking her if she also let him play with knives and electric sockets (but of course I didn't)

AIBU to expect that my dogs and I should be able to walk peacefully without attacks from uncontrolled children?

I'm fine with the word "attack", especially after DD1 went to ask an owner today if she could pat their dog and the dog in question shrunk back noticeably as she approached and then started barking.

Sometimes people forget that dogs are animals with incredibly powerful jaws.

YANBU.

I too am frequently astonished at how many children have no clue about how to approach a dog (Ask the owners permission, then ask the dog's permission to approach/touch/pet - don't bash a dog about the head - don't stare at them etc etc); I never realised just how little idea so many people have about dogs are not human, don't speak human and cannot be expected to react in what would seem acceptable to humans in all situations, until we adopted our greyhound.

My dog is always on lead when out and about because I know that he is young and jumpy and very easily over-aroused and excited. He is harmless, but huge and has huge teeth and likes to play rough.
So, I exert control over my dog, I just wish parents/carers would do the same of the children.

yanbu the mother sounds completely oblivious to everyday risk and let's hope nothing awful ever happens - I am wondering though why you thought it was okay to have your dogs off the lead, not put them back on a lead when you saw people/small child in the vicinity? having dealt with various dog attacks (medical care) this worries me rather more than a daft parent and a small toddler wandering around.

YANBU. I've brought my DC up to ask if it's ok to touch strange dogs, for the DC's safety more than anything.

I said 'no' very clearly
And stood there body blocking toddler and waiting for the penny to drop
Sorry if that's weird, I was pretty gobsmacked that someone could be quite that thick and wasn't sure how to explain such obvious idiocy.

Probably not as weird as sending your child towards potential danger though.

YANBU at all. Some adults shouldn't approach dogs either! A man and his wife put their hands in my dogs mouth(he is either a cross of husky ,chow, collie, akita nobody is sure.)he has huge teeth anyway. I couldn't avoid them. Stupid people

Yanbu, but don't forget that not everyone has dogs or understands how they can act. I have never had a dog, I don't really like them tbh, and so am pretty unaware about they act as I try to avoid them at all costs. If one of my DC approached a dog I would definitely call them back, but if I was less afraid of them myself then I could see that I might let my children approach one without thinking through what could happen. What I'm trying to say is that if you don't know much about dogs and have only had positive experiences with them, I can see how you might do as the woman did.

I teach SEN boys: they are EBD, so they are aware of their actions, though not always responsible for them.

One day a week I teach World Studies (History / Geography / RE etc), where we have a classroom lesson on a topic for period 1, then spend the day looking at it on the ground (Visit a castle / a farm / a place of worship etc). Often, especially on the rural visits, we meet dogs with which the boys are desperate to interact. But they know that they cannot approach a dog without both the owner and me saying so.

I insist on having a veto because I know through bitter experience that dog owners can have too rosey a view of their beasts' temperaments: DD3 was once attacked by a dog that "loved children" and was only saved from serious injury because DH toe-punted the fucer into the next field (for which the bitc owner tried to sue us!).

I don't trust our own dog (JRT) with unknown children, so always warn parents not to let them near her; and insist that my own children do the same when they walk her.

leghoul I thought it was ok to have my dogs off lead because:

1. They are well behaved and responsive (as exemplified by me being able to immediately all them to me)
2. It's a legal freedom that I'm entitled to exercise
3. Off lead exercise is correlated with a reduction in health and behaviour problems in dogs and is beneficial for physical and psychological health
4. They've never shown a single aggressive behaviour. That doesn't mean it's ok for them to be scared by irresponsible idiots

I didn't put them back on lead because as I clearly explained before, I didn't have time to clip the leads on only to put my bags down and hold their collars

Why do you think putting them on the lead would have made any difference to my direct restraint?

it is astounding isn't it! sounds like you did what you could in the circumstances, but I still don't like dogs off leads - small children don't behave predictably either but have to walk around. The number of times I've been in a park and dogs have come up to me and preschool DC, or dogs been running around freely charging at DC; and the number of times in the street too when seemingly aggressive dogs have been walking near their owner then run suddenly. It's very stressful! I hate it because no matter how many times I say, DS still doesn't think there's any risk. No matter how many times I explain, I tell him news stories, etc etc- still no risk perception and thus high chance of injury if dog isn't on a lead even when he's very close to me.

sometimes I'd suggest it's your responsibility as a parent to educate your DC how to behave appropriately around dogs. Just as you teach them how to cross roads safely and not to go off with strangers.
Google Liam Perks Foundation for some useful resources

I would never let my DC approach or bother strange dogs.

However... i have never ever ever had a dog owner check with me if its ok for their dog to bound over and lick/snuffle/grab/do God knows what to my kids. They generally seem to let them run over and leave it to me to move my DC out of their way. Including the dog owner who let their hound run over to where my new baby DC was lying on our picnic blanket as dc1 and I ate our picnic (I manage to pick up baby and protect dc1 but the dog grabbed our sandwiches so ruined the picnic anyway). Also the owners of the dog who ran over and pissed all over the seat where my DC were sitting and (a separate occasion) the dog who ran over and did a big shit right where my mum and DC (inc baby) were sitting, did emphatically NOT check with me that any of this was ok.

Recently a big dog ran over to my three year old and scared him causing him to fall off his trike. The owners did not check with me beforehand if it was ok for their mutt to do this. In fact they were adamant it was my dc's fault for being scared. Given what dogs are capable of I don't think it's unreasonable for my little boy to be scared (although I always try to encourage him not to be scared and do encourage gentle contact with known/safe dogs).

If your dogs are not safe around children are you sure they should be off their leads?

I think it depends on where you were- if somewhere where obviously lots of people around, or high chance of small children irrespective of whether their parents are idiots, i think dogs should be on a lead. If dogs attack they are not responsive, no matter how placable they are usually, and with 2 it sounds like you had a hard time blocking toddler while also holding onto them. I am a bit jumpy about this though because of the injuries I've seen from unexpected attacks - often small children, sometimes owners, or neighbours the dog has known for years and always been friendly to. I just think unless there's a field etc or large open space dogs should be very easily controllable for safety and the only way is for them to be on leads. Not in this case, as they were so close. More a general comment.

Dogs should be close enough to owner they can be restrained, young children should be close enough to their parents they can be restrained. If that happens then neither should annoy the other.

Dogs off leads is only a problem is the dog has poor recall or the owners are the kind of idiot who will let their dog run at a young child and then laugh when that child runs towards water to get away (thankfully close to parent so grab-able)

Yanbu at all, in any way. Of course it was an attack in your dog's eyes. Bloody stupid people make me so cross.

Ddog is soppy and friendly as they come, but the idiot children who run at her and grab her with no warning don't know that. Without exception I stop them every time. I tell them that they shouldn't try and stroke a dog they don't know. They have no idea if she is friendly or not!

Recently we took ddog to a carnival with us. I had to stop 6 different children from trying to touch her without permission. One actually lunged out at her from a crowd. they are lucky she is pretty much bomb proof (we wouldn't have taken her if she wasn't) so barely reacted. many calm tempered dogs would react badly to a stranger lunging at them unexpectedly!

What is wrong with people? How many more children are going to be attacked because of human stupidity before people start treating dogs with the respect they deserve.

Dd isn't even two and she knows we don't touch animals that aren't ours. I have repeatedly said 'ah look at that doggy. We can look but we dont touch. It's not our doggy is it?'. If a two year old can get it, it's not bloody hard is it?!

I agree with the 'they should have already been on leads' arguments if there are people around like the 'nearby mum'.

In the same way that dog owners can't all be relied on to be responsible around children, adults with children can't all be relied on to be responsible around dogs.

Far, far better if dogs are kept on leads when near unfamiliar people.

And, no, I absolutely do not let my children go near unfamiliar dogs, let alone try to pet them.

Unfortunately though they have had more experience of unfamiliar dogs than I would like due to dogs running and jumping up at them, dogs trampling over picnics, a dog biting a friend we were standing next to etc etc etc.

Dogs and children often don't mix. I have one child who adores dogs and one who is terrified of them (and everything else with fur). I have a nightmare restraining the pair of them, the one who adores dogs is only 2 and does not yet understand he has to ask the owner before petting a dog, the one who is terrified would step into the road in front of a car to get away from one. I end up grabbing both of them before they go in opposite directions and pulling them towards me whenever we pass a dog. Sigh. God knows what people think of me, I'm fed up of people saying 'my dog is friendly' and having to reply 'well, my daughter isn't'.

monkey missing the point. The dogs have not shown any aggressive behaviour to children, nor did they in this circumstance. I'm terribly sorry for all the shitty dog owners you've encountered in the past (presumably in parks?) but the OP was clearly not one of them as she immediately restrained her dogs and stopped the child approaching. OP has explained in a recent post her reasons for having the dogs off the leads.

Your experiences are not directly relevant to the OP's post and some might say an attempt to shift blame on all dog owners. Some parents are shitty people. Some dog owners are shitty people. When you yourself are not a shitty person, the behaviour of shitty people is irritating. Isn't it?

But parents do educate their children on crossing the road, and so on. They still get killed in accidents. The onus is not on the parent to be educating the child to avoid the risk that doesn't need to be there - it's for the risk to be minimised and both sides to be taking steps to ensure safety. A dog off a lead that snaps at a child is like teaching a child not to cross unless green man but a lorry cutting straight through the light when it's safe to cross anyway. I think the balance has to be in favour of public safety - unlikely a toddler is going to give me such grievous injuries I need my face stitched back on, lose my eye and have permanent nerve damage, or I bleed out in the ambulance from my neck wound and die, or I need months and months of physio from a 'nip'. A dog can. And when dogs do attack it is often out of the blue, and they are not responsive to their owners. Please don't believe they'll come or stop if you call them - if they are acting out of character, then everything will be out of character.

Sorry where did I say my dogs weren't safe around children?

I have said clearly that they have never shown any aggressive tendencies - that does not however give irresponsible parents a free license to send their offspring charging in

No dog is ever completely 'safe' especially if surprised or frightened - that's why the majority of dog bites occur in the home. I take my responsibility to keep my dogs safe from unexpected frightening situations very seriously. If you wish to cast me as the irresponsible one in this scenario because I was concerned for the child and NEVER want my dogs to be in a situation where they might feel the need to bite because of irresponsible parents then go agead

Some children just don't perceive risk and act on it as well as others no matter how good the education is - lots of cartoons and other things show dogs to be friendly and funny characters. It's wrong to say children should understand. Yes their parents should certainly restrain them, where this is possible - but there shouldn't be the need to in the first place.

Leghoul, if a child steps out in the road without looking, that can be equated to letting a child run blithely at unfamiliar dogs. The kid came RIGHT AT HER - how do you know them being on the lead would have prevented an accident since the child entered her personal space? Unless the OP can run backwards at 50 MPH, this hypothetical situation could not have been avoided anyway.

sunshine don't sweat it. A lot of projection on this thread and dislike of poor dog owners coming out and clouding the issue.