To request that all parents please ask

[SunshineAndShadows]

... Before you let your child loose on a strange dog!

I was just out with my two hounds, both friendly beasts but bouncy when out walking and neither enjoy contact with children as they've had unpleasant DC experiences and will avoid them as much as they can.

Both dogs off lead but under control by me when I see a nearby mum release her toddler (very small, no older than 2) in my direction. He toddles forwards and I put a hand on each dog's collar so that I have full control (no time to clip on leads) and mum cheers him on.

I eventually have to do a crazy toddler knee block whilst holding both dogs and saying 'no' very firmly, which stops him in his tracks. Mum then comes over and stands there expectantly. I was wordless with astonishment and eventually she pulled him away saying 'oh dear, the doggies don't want to play'.

I felt like asking her if she also let him play with knives and electric sockets (but of course I didn't)

AIBU to expect that my dogs and I should be able to walk peacefully without attacks from uncontrolled children?

Oh I know exactly why you started the thread. It's an admirable sentiment.

These threads happen all the time (I know you must have seen them). The original sentiment always becomes irrelevant.

The 'don't let your children approach any dog' thing comes up all the time and I've only ever seen people say 'I never do that anyway'. Never known a single person admit that they let their dc approach unknown dogs. The bunfight always takes over anyway.

I'm playing devil's advocate here and wondering if you can't slightly see how people can think on-lead = safe and off-lead = unsafe. If no dog is ever 100% predictable and we all accept that as absolute fact, you must accept that for some people a dog being unleashed poses more opportunity for unpredictable behaviour than one who is on leash? It might not be completely correct as an assumption, but you must see why people believe it? In general terms?

I believe nothing either way btw. I like tortoises and axolotls. I don't take them out, on or off lead.

ShowOfHands, you should really know better than to try and be the voice of reason on threads like these!

I'd pay good money to see you out and about with a Axolotl on a lead.

On lead = safe, off lead = unsafe, is one of those dangerous misconceptions tbh.

As dogs are part of our society whether we like them or not, I think it is vitally important that people educate themselves about how to behave about dogs, particularly children.

But yes, the audience here makes it very likely that any thread like this is preaching to the converted, and that weird holes get picked in to the OP the intent of which was quite clear to me with the resulting bunfight

Peace and love

I have no problem with dogs, or people walking them. I hadn't ever come across this thing of parents encouraging children to bother the dogs before I read it (frequently) on MN. I'm sure it's really annoying.

All I've come across, as a child-owner rather than a dog owner, is children shying away and dog owners bringing the dog up and saying 'say hello, say hello, stroke him' or 'he won't hurt you, he's playing'. I think a fair amount of people have probably encountered the same.

Like most people and most parents, I have a healthy wariness of dogs around children. I think there are two responsibilities here - for parents to keep their children away (if the dog owners make that possible) and for dog owners to do the same.

Essentially I have no issue with the fact that the child was being badly looked after, its mother was idiotic, and the OP was in a difficult situation. I do have an issue with the language used around the child, and in particular with reference to toddlers 'mauling' dogs. Toddlers don't maul. Dogs maul.

I do care about children an awful lot more than I care about dogs. So shoot me.

Its an interesting point Show but there's actually some evidence that suggests that aggressive encounters are more likely on lead, and 'leash reactivity' is a recognised behavioural syndrome, particularly in encounters with other dogs. Of course if you had a dog in this situation, and you were concerned about aggression you'd do well to muzzle it, but the false safety a lead provides can be very misleading. Flexi leads are even worse and pose a real risk of injury to both people and dogs, whilst giving pretty much zero control.

I think the point in this situation is that a lead would have conferred absolutely no benefit.

On a personal level I do have an objection to the negative welfare impacts that being permanently on the lead can have on dogs (and the consecutive impacts this reduced welfare may have on dog-human interactions), and suggesting dogs always being on lead as an antidote to irresponsible human behaviour is to my mind spectacularly missing the point.

As PP have pointed out what we should be encouraging is responsible dog ownership and responsible parenting.

It's very easy to find videos and photos of parents allowing their DCs to bother dogs, just google 'cute dogs with cute children'. I don't know if these dog owners with no understanding of dog body language are Mumsneter, maybe they belong to the forum which must not be mentioned.

Seriously, I already know what you're saying. As I pointed out, I don't necessarily believe it to be a correct assertion but was asking if you truly found it weird/nonsensical that people think on lead is safer. You might not agree, but you must be able to see why people feel that way. People who have no vested interest in dogs. Not as a sole effort to control a dog, not to the detriment of all training or responsible ownership and not in reference to specific situations such as the one in your op. Just in general, people might think a dog on a lead is less unpredictable than a dog off a lead.

Somebody on here years ago once said 'you have to remember in an argument that the other person believes they are right as passionately as you do. They know you are wrong as vehemently as you know they are wrong'. It seems obvious, but I do try to be mindful of this in the ways in which I interact. Sometimes you just don't agree and it's that simple.

Heavens, we're never going to agree on MN. Not on a single thing. Whether it's on the beauty that is David Mitchell or whether an axolotl is better than a terrapin (it fucking is btw). The great dog debate is such a good example of this.

Seek, I think my life experience matches yours in a lot of ways. As a child owner, I've often seen it the way round you describe. I know this is purely because of my own life circumstances though. I think there are just a load of wazzocks out there. Some have children, some have dogs, some have both and some have neither.

Pacific, don't say I didn't ruddy try. I've got my peace and love branch and I'm waving it. And walk an axolotl on a lead? How ridiculous. I'll be pushing its tank round on wheels whilst ringing my bell thank you very much.

Booboos, I have a FB friend who posts 'hilarious' videos of her child bothering her dog. Ha ha ha, look at the little darling hitting the pooch with a stick, ha ha ha ha, she's marking her territory ha ha ha.

I haven't got a dog and am frightened of some dogs (only if they seem aggressive), but I think the OP makes a valid point. I've met a dog who was definitely frightened of me. He was a rescue and nervous around new people, and his person had warned me that he might not want me to go close to him, so I didn't. When I stood up (not to go near him but he didn't know that) he quite visibly shrunk away from me and whimpered. I certainly wouldn't have gone any closer, not because he was likely to bite me (although he was a breed that has a bit of a reputation), but because it would just have been cruel to do something that was obviously making him so unhappy. Dogs have feelings too, and although they might not be able to express them in English it's sometimes fairly obvious from their body language, and I think it's fair enough to ask people to respect that.

Emma, sometimes it is obvious from a dog's body language that they are unhappy (cringing and whimpering in your example). But unfortunately some of the signals can be subtle, and you'd have to know a little about dogs, and to know that particular dog to spot them. In the instance I gave earlier, my dog went from panting and looking happy to licking his lips. I know that as a indication that he's feeling uncomfortable and why, but the two girls running toward him didn't.

I drilled into my kids from the time they were tiny that not all dogs are as benign and tolerant as our dog ( who was tolerant of her kids only)and that they should always ask permission before approaching & touching someone else's dog. even the most laid back hound can become distressed and nip when they are having their ears/tail/fur pulled or if they are being sat on, even an unfamiliar smell can up set them. I would never allow a very small child to approach a strange dog without me right there to run interference in case the worst should happen, NO you are NBUR and the mother of that toddler needs a good smack upside her head.

Years ago we were in a park - open field place - on holiday and a dog started to chase DS who was prob around 5. It was really horrible as it was a 'scary' dog (we called it Voldemort dog as it had that long face which was whit). DS did nothing to provoke it and thankfully he got away, so how about keeping your dogs safe from kids who might inadvertently walk in their eyeline. No way was he going anywhere near the dog intentionally

Another Missing the Point award due to be handed out to dance

NOT the same scenario here.

Ah, I see it's irrelevant anecdote time. I was once followed by a strange man through a park, acting very suspiciously. I did nothing to provoke him and thankfully I got away. So how about people keep their husbands/ fathers/ brothers/ sons etc away from following females who inadvertently walk in their eyeline.
Shall we share irrelevant tales of bad drivers next based on the car park aspect, and all demand of each other we learn to control our vehicles?

Cars should be banned too, purely as a precaution because some people can't control theirs and this is somehow the fault of every single car owner.

applause

But they don't really sound completely under your control if you need leads to prevent them running away under certain circumstances. I mean, you can't always control them by hand can you?

I just think that dogs should be on leads where there are children around. My son was knocked down twice by huge puppies when he was a toddler and both times the owners were full of how sweet and lovely and unthreatening these out of control, off the leads, dogs were, while my poor lad was really frightened and has remained nervous of dogs since. I think they need to be trained on and off the lead to NOT knock children over and if they can't control themselves then they need to stay on the lead until they can.
We had a really well trained dog who did exactly what she was told. I know many people get rescue dogs but still, if they can't be controlled they have to be on a lead surely.

YANBU, I have had this with my dog before we had DC. She's a large fluffy breed and quite wolf-like. I had to tell some children off who were climbing all over her and their mum had a go at me! I told her that if my dog bit her child, it would be her fault for not teaching her children to ask before they stroke a dog, I also don't want my dog put down because of some entitled mother!

I have always taught DD to ask before she strokes a dog and we've only ever had 1 owner say no, which of course was fine. It's common sense isn't it!

if you need leads to prevent them running away under certain circumstances

JFC we're just going around in circles.

The dogs didn't run away, attempt to run away, or need preventing from running away. She was trying to get them away from a child who running TOWARDS her because the mother is a dumbass.

I think they need to be trained on and off the lead to NOT knock children over and if they can't control themselves then they need to stay on the lead until they can

Does. Not. Apply. To. This. Situation. No child was knocked over, the dogs didn't even go near the kid, the kid came to her.

fair enough, we do have to teach our children not to run to pet dogs they don't know.

but it's important to remember how often it's the other way around and children are knocked over and worse by dogs who are not under control. Not in your case but far far far too often.

but it's important to remember how often it's the other way around and children are knocked over and worse by dogs who are not under control.

WE KNOW but it's not applicable to THIS discussion.

That's a little dictatorial, I happen to disagree but that's fine, I'm comfortable with the views of people I disagree with.

It clearly is driving story time. I have been cut up by people driving vehicles. On one occasion my poor little dc (darling car) was intimidated by a badly driven hgv. One of those ones that had wheels just like an armed vehicle, so for the purposes of embellishment I'll describe it as a pit bull bar modified hgv, a dangerous and banned make of vehicle. It pulled infront of me with no indicators and without my quick thinking could have knocked poor car into oncoming traffic. This is not an unheard of scenario. So please I implore people if they can't drive carefully and safely, they really should keep their cars on drives.

"Dictatorial" give me a break. "Histrionic", there's a word for ya. I haven't DICTATED anything to you, I haven't TOLD you to do anything, I've said your waffle is irrelevant and inapplicable, in my - and other people's - opinion.

If I start a thread talking about women's issues and then a guy comes on talking about men's rights, that's derailing the thread and is irrelevant to the topic of discussion. By flipping the topic of discussion to "what about the other side" you're ignoring the issue that's actually being discussed.

But they don't really sound completely under your control if you need leads to prevent them running away under certain circumstances. I mean, you can't always control them by hand can you?

The same could be said about very young children and sometimes not so young ones I have reins to prevent my toddler running off under certain circumstances. I also have a wrist strap for my 4yo as a bargaining tool (run off and on it goes).

Maybe children under a certain age should be on leads/reins at all times in public too for the same reasons as dogs should be.

Stormy i doubt anyone has ever been fatally bitten by a toddler