Is taking my DC out of school really so bad??

[MaryPoppinsPenguins]

I'm getting a lot of shit judgement from DH's parents about our holiday plans.

I thought long and hard about it and decided that it would be okay to take them out of school given that my youngest is only in nursery (so not compulsory) and my oldest is only in year one and it will just be the week before Christmas and I don't feel she'll miss anything crucial.

My DH is told when he can have time off and has to take projects when they're offered, which means that often he won't see the kids from Monday to Friday (which I know is common) and pretty horrible.

So we booked a holiday for this time, went for lunch at PIL's after and ended up having a huge row with them over booking it during school time.

I know this can be a sore subject, but a week of essentially watching videos and having carol concerts isn't really as important as getting to spend a whole week with your dad is it?

(Dons hard hat!)

It does seem very draconian to me, but I am in Scotland where termtime holidays are still authorised.

If you can afford the fines, OP, I'd do it. Your children are very young and are likely to be very tired and possibly unwell by that stage of term. The one in Nursery doesn't have to be there anyway and the one in Y1 has 5 more years of school festivities ahead of her.

It's actually very rare for kids at my school now to go on holiday, but the endless other requests for a "different deal" are annoying... But they happen everywhere I guess.

It's not illegal to take your kids out of school. You won't get arrested.

You might get a fine depending on your schools policy. Ours refer to the local authority to fine if attendance drops below 85 % at any time. Otherwise it's just marked as unauthorised.

Enjoy your holiday, Disney at Christmas is meant to be fabulous! Hope you are reading all the trip reports on the dibb avidly!

Disney at Christmas.

I think you are right Iguana. It was very like that at the Ds's First School with people asking for something that wasn't what the school did. Nothing was ever quite right for them.

You might get a fine the first time but if you do it repeatedly you could end up in court as the fine is meant to be a deterrent to doing it again. An LA near here has got a fierce reputation on this front.

Get in there and offer to help and see what actually goes on.

I have done, including in the last week before Xmas. The amount of time spent learning is teeny weeny on an ordinary day (why do you think Home-Edders manage on an hour a day at age of OP's children?), but when there's a party to fit in and a few videos so the TAs can clear the room out, the time spent learning plummets even more.

My old p2 teacher, (who was a bit of a harridan and definitely dyed in the wool) still advocates that taking your child out of school will do them absolutely no harm academically or otherwise up until they are in p6 (in Scotland, so age 9/10)

Rowgtfc the law, rightly or wrongly, doesn't allow the school to authorise your absence. You can take your child out to spend time with your relative and are highly unlikely to be fined for a single day but it will be marked unauthorised.

Do you really think it's a good idea to call them in sick and lie, especially as the school will know you're lying? Quite apart from anything else they might monitor your sickness record very closely which would be a real pain if your child is genuinely I'll.

I do wonder if teachers get fed up with it. The children coming back in and then them having to catch up with what's been missed

This has been mentioned a couple of times but the truth is IME teachers don't go over what has been missed. Dd and ds when they didn't understand anything then it was just tough and the teachers would plough on. Ds only learnt to read because I was in a position that I could take him out of school to HE him. Dd came out of primary school reading but only just.

I think schools should take on board that just because you have a pupil turning up each day doesn't mean they are actually learning anything.

In my experience teachers always went over what was missed.

SwedeDreams The rules changed in September:

"From September 2015 the Government has changed the way schools are judged in terms of attendance. Schools will now be judged against a persistent absence rate of 10% rather than 15%."

Our local authority won't authorise any holiday during term time now, but will only authorise leave of absence under exceptional circumstances such as terminal illness or bereavement.

Fines aren't enforced by the school, but the local authority.

Don't speak about holidays and everyone will be just fine

Seriously - why is this thread still going?

The OP is going to take her DCs out anyway. It doesn't matter what anyone on here says.

Yes, and I think the idea was that we say that the ILs are being unreasonable. As if IIRC that was the original question.

@ IguanaTail

I did once work in a school like that... the only difference was it cost something absolutely mad like £30/k year.

It would be interesting to see whether parents who take their kids out of school during early years, giving the 'they're not doing much/it's the week before Christmas/they'll learn more on holiday' justification, actually end up continuing this pattern for the rest of their education. You could probably apply similar justifications for almost any point up to their actual exams (and, even then: 'they're on study leave/a change of environment will help them...etc').

I don't doubt that some trips are educational. I seriously doubt that a week on some English-speaking tourist resort in Lanzarote, or Disneyland, truly fit that bill. And how depressing to have to lie about it afterwards, if you've called in sick. If it's such a life-changing, necessary vacation, won't the kids want to broadcast it at school? We always went on and on about our holidays when I was at primary. Look at my pet rock what I got in St Ives! Listen to my fake Canadian accent! Here is a sweet with actual French writing!

Do parents who call in sick encourage their kids to keep their mouths shut? Or do they just not care: we broke the rules, lied to your face, and we won't even bother to conceal that?

Well, to answer the original question then, it's up to you, not your PILs unless they are paying school fees or something. But they clearly feel very strongly that it's wrong and not in the best interests of the DCs and they while they could just keep out of it, sometimes it can be hard when you think other family members are making a wrong call.

Agree with the don't lie brigade. Children are rubbish at keeping holidays secret and your children or other pupils will innocently drop them in it!

I really don't understand the strength of feeling about this issue. We took dd out of school several times when she was younger, mainly to visit family in her dad's home country and once to visit the country where her dad and I used to live. We didn't take her out of school lightly, but we felt that there were valid reasons, and fortunately the school agreed - the absences were all authorised.

Things have changed now, and the school can no longer authorise these absences. As a consequence, dd hasn't seen anyone on her dad's side of the family for three years. I'm only grateful that we were able to go when we did, as her grandmother died a couple of years ago.

People keep saying that there are plenty of opportunities to go away during the school holidays, but it isn't always as simple as that. For various reasons, we are unable to go to DH's country in any of the longer school holidays. Half terms are an option, and that's what we're going to do this year, but because of the rural location, it takes about 3 days to travel there in either direction. This means that we will have to spend a couple of thousand pounds in order to have around 3-4 days with DH's family.

There has never been an issue in terms of dd catching up on what she has missed, and I can honestly say, hand on heart, that I believe she has learnt more from these overseas trips than she could ever learn from a few days in school.

Personally, I think it should be left to the discretion of the head teacher as to whether or not absences are authorised. It is not a decision for the government to make.

I seriously doubt that a week on some English-speaking tourist resort in Lanzarote, or Disneyland, truly fit that bill.

10 days in Lanzarote when DD was 3 (self catering, hired a car) = lots of new foods, learning a few words/phrases in Spanish, visiting the volcano centre, cactus garden, a wildlife park, learning to swim, trying new foods as well as important family time.

We did DLP during term time last year (she was 4) with a group of people that we consider family (kids all same age) = few phrases in French, maths working out what she could buy with her money, trying new foods, as well as really important time spent with the closest thing she'll ever have to siblings. We're going again when they're 5, in term time. Luckily we're in Wales with a school system that's a bit less rigid (in our area at least). The head is free to approve the absence, and I've no reason to suspect he won't.

Some people are being ridiculous here.

You can't de-register someone after 5 days!

This is probably one of the least disruptive weeks (at least in Primary school), especially infants. The children are tired. There are lots and lots of fun events, and very little learning.
That is why the Australian families I've known usually take this week off when they go for a home visit (every 2 or 3 years). Much better this week than the first week on January.

Seeing Dad is important - and so is having fun together.

OP in the old days you might well have got permission, now you are unlikely to, and might get fined - but if you budget for that then that's okay.

They still have the forms because you need them for things like "singing to the Queen", being on the radio, going on choir/orchestra/sports tours etc. Things that have a strong educational benefit but aren't organised by school.

DamnBamboo - my holiday was authorised, so some schools are obviously still doing it.

mummytime no, de registration after 5 days isn't possible - but the OP has no idea what the future holds. Her DCs could pick up several colds/tummy bugs over the next few months, necesitating time off. She could be faced with a family situation that means she can't get the DCs to school.

A five day unauthorised absence now, will impact on the way in which future absences are managed by the school. She may be required to provide medical evidence for minor illness. She may be refused authorised absence for an emergency because of her DCs prior attendance record.

And eventually, if the OPs DCs attendance drops below a certain level, then EWOs will be involved. And each year, the thresholds for sanctions reduces, and the severity of sanctions increases. The OPs DC is very young; she has several years of schooling to negotiate and this absence won't get written off at the end of the year -it will follow her DC through her education.

So all you posters saying 'YABU'. If your DH / DP had NO leave during school hols and did not see the children during the week , would never take the chance to extend the school hol to spend 5 days together as a family?

Op I think you brought down the ire of MN by dissing the last week of term as educational. You don't need to justify your decision about the holiday, make a decision about what is best for your family overall .

I have never taken DC out of school for any reason but medical, but I hate this blunt instrument for all parents, and the notion of fines for non-criminals , imposed by not-the-courts, because SOME parents play fast and loose with their kids education.

In practical terms, there probably won't be any huge consequences of your action. It will go down as unauthorised and you might get a snotty letter and possibly a fine, but probably not. Your child will miss some school and the fun things. In Jan things will continue as normal.

So there won't be any earth shattering direct effects of your choice. But what you do have to consider is whether you are someone who believes the rules are there for a good reason and therefore should be supported.....that the government has said term time holidays are not amongst the valid reasons for authorisation.......so that means YOUR holidays too. Are you going to support and stick to the rules or flout them......you will probably 'get away with it' in terms of the fine if attendance is otherwise good, but is that what you are interested in.....or do you want to support the school and your childrens education by sticking to the rules?

Are you generally someone who looks at laws and then decides if they should apply to you or just to other people, or do you think tht the law is the law?

Sounds like you have decided to go. That is your choice. You should also acknowledge that the government has decided that holidays are harmful to education during term time - for the sake of fairness and simplicity, it has to be a blanket rule. You are choosing to break it. You might be able to justify it to yourself, but still acknowledge that is is breaking the rules.

I imagine the OP and others won't like this analogy, but I consider her question to be similar to asking 'is it really so bad to drive above 30 in a 30 zone'?

The law is the law for a reason. It does apply to everyone. Breaking it can be harmful.

So, most of us have exceeded 30 at times. Most of the time we have got away with it and not had accidents. However there is huge evidence to support having low speed limits in built up areas. Lives are saved by having this law, when people stick to it.
Likewise there is evidence that term time holidays damage education. It might not be that every single holiday does in a very tangible way (like not every during at 35 causes an accident) but the government has to make a blanket rule and cannot say some people can drive faster than others - that is the only way laws can operate.
Schools have recognised there are times when people need to be off school - which is why they can apply for authorised absence. Clarity about holidays being unacceptable is important for parents and schools. Your choice about whether to accept it or not.