Merkel is responsible, Germany should take them

[longfingernails]

Merkel has idiotically encouraged millions of illegals to risk their lives getting to Europe, and then promptly shut the door on them. Now sensible countries like Hungary are having to bear the brunt. It's the most idiotic policy I've seen for quite some while.

Germany should pay. Germany should house them. And the EU rules on free movement of people should be torn up. I hope the AfD gets a massive boost at the expense of the CDU/CSU.

I think even someone as wet as Cameron could get Hungary, Croatia, et al to agree on making Germany bear the brunt after the problems caused by hordes of illegals at their borders over the last few days. I am sure the Greeks would be more than happy to oblige too.

Talk1npeace, when Germany starts playing fast and loose with Schengen and the Dublin Agreement then why should Hungary play by the EU rules? Especially as Germany seem to view using financial blackmail as a legitimate means of imposing their will.

That's exactly what I'm saying peace. We need to invest, create an infrastructure, create jobs, get children an education, provide sanitation, decent shelter.

There is a huge refugee camp on Somalia's borders which has largely been ignored. The terrible conditions there have fomented more and more extremism and perpetuated Somalia's problems.

If we want to solve Syria's problems we need to make sure that we are spending our money effectively in the areas which most need help. I don't want another Aylan Kurdi. I want that to happen by making sure desperate parents don't think getting on a dinghy in Bodrum is their only option.

So how would you make life better in the Refugee "camps" which are actually cities of many decades existence in the middle east

At least by allowing the most dynamic members of each family to come to the West and earn money and send their money back it will be targeted and Europe gets its labour shortages dealt with.

Ta1k

So are you suggesting we somehow only take in the refugees who match our current skills shortage?

Or are you suggesting we invite everyone in, in the hope that it fills those gaps.

the latter

Ok, thought so.

I think you need to read a few more back issues of the economist to understand the problem with this as you seem to ignore peer reviewed research. (or read the one you have from cover to cover at least)

Please enlighten me, what is the solution that I have missed?

Rather than slagging off my ideas (as you have done throughout the thread), what are yours?

an unpopular view but i do not want to take anyone who cannot prove their identity and be checked for criminal background and involvement in war crimes.

once this is known people will stop burning their ID papers or thinking burning off their fingerprints with acid will be enough to be able to clear themselves of a criminal history or association with war crimes.

these are people who come from countries where being caught without papers, even if you are doing nothing other than going about your daily business, can see you thrown in a police cell so it's not like they don't know they are doing something dangerous and illegal.

i do not want to accept anyone who a) can't be identified and b) has refused to follow legal process of stopping and applying in the first nation they came to where they could have done that.

i don't see to be honest why it should be so shocking for a nation to say that they want to choose law abiding people over criminals.

sensible post Honey. Then at least we are aware of the country they have come from in the first place.

Thehoneybadger, I'd imagine most people would agree with you. I've been to Croatia and Hungary, they're fairly sleepy and rural. I would be scared if I lived there right now, with many thousands of aggressive men of dubious provenance rampaging around creating mayhem.

Ta1k

I'm not suggesting you have missed a solution but as your obviously a social liberal/economic conservative type I would have at least thought you had a basic grasp of the economic downsides of having an open immigration policy.

You deny that it has an impact on the low skilled and have ignored the social aspect, considering that the gruniad has ran an article highlighting this shows that there has been a significant nudge in mindset.

we need to address why we have the skills shortage we do and address that situation(retention of doctors being a relevant example), whilst immigration is part of that process, open immigration in the hope to fill these gaps is not socially liberal to the existing UK population nor economically viable short to medium term, not to mention the naivety of the 'send the money home' argument, even the economist promotes this balance in their most fervent 'flood the market' columns.

That's why I suggested you read a few back issues.

I agree with you HoneyBadger and you too shins.

I think Merkel got it very, very wrong by saying 'come and we will take you'. What she should have said is stay where you are, we will make sure you're safe and fed and your children are educated and when we've registered you and ascertained you are a genuine refugee we will take you,

Too right! And we should send them all to the countries who started it all by invading Iraq!!

Oh, hang on.

Much as I disagreed with the Iraq invasion, it's ridiculous to blame it for all the troubles of the Middle East. Syria kicked off because of a failed Arab Spring, drought and far too many unemployed young men. (the population was 5 million in 1960 and it's now 22 million). Then there's that 1400 year old Sunni-Shia conflict, I don't think you can pin that on the West. Lastly, the majority of the people trying to enter Germany aren't Syrian-what have Bangladeshis, Kosovans, Nigerians, Eritreans and Pakistanis got to do with the Iraq invasion?

Honeybadger I think a big problem for many
people is that they don't actually have papers. They haven't deliberately destroyed them, they have just been bombed, lost, left behind in haste or a crush of people, etc etc. So many people have legitimately not been able to hang on to these vital documents.

From a purely practical point of view, what are we as the EU going to do? Even if we thought it was acceptable (and I don't), we can't fence off the entire Greek coastline. We have thousands of people in the move within or towards the EU. I have no practical solutions, but we can't continue like this.

Did anyone hear Lyse Doucette on Radio 4 this morning? Her piece pointed out that only a 5th of the refugees/migrants are from Syria. Many are from other parts of Asia/Africa and trying to blend in to the crowd and pass for Syrian. The most resourced and capable have stormed ahead towards Northing Europe leaving the most vulnerable behind.

This made me think two things. First, all resources are finite and these people will soak up all the money, space and goodwill before other's in much greater need even get a chance. And, second, David Cameron's plan to take refugees from the camps rather than those already in Europe is looking very intelligent.

He looked like a "meanie" compared to Merkel. Now it just looks like he has better judgement and more foresight.

I keep hearing how many people are trying to "pass for Syrian" and while I don't doubt it at all, it's really not the kind of thing most people can get away with for too long. Other people of your nationality are usually able to tell where you come from pretty quickly.

Maybe so ohmy. But does anyone have to "get away with it" for long? Perhaps just long enough to fool the person in Croatia/Slovenia/Hungary trying to register them. After that, does it matter anymore?

I don't really know how it works Heigh (luckily for me) but refugees don't just register and get on with life. After initial registration they have to have their cases properly assessed and eventually accepted/rejected. They have caseworkers, local language & integration classes etc, at least in the country I live in (friend was granted refugee status, hence my extremely limited experience, and I'm in a wealthy country).

Ohmy / heigh
The countries processing claims will have interpreters
and those people will be able to spot the frauds PDQ

same as any English person can spot a Scouser when a Yank thinks we all sounds like the queen

If I walk down my local high street I find Poles dead easy to spot, Romanians and Hungarians are hard to tell apart for me
Russians are pretty easy
as are Scots for that matter
If I can do it and I'm an idle observer, how quickly will a paid expert manage it ?

But does anyone have to "get away with it" for long? Perhaps just long enough to fool the person in Croatia/Slovenia/Hungary trying to register them. After that, does it matter anymore?
Agree. It will be very difficult to send failed asylum seekers back to where they came from if there are large numbers.
There could be long drawn out legal battles and I can't imagine politicians wanting to risk the adverse publicity of thousands of people being dragged protesting onto planes.

ender
Through work, I dealt with the first wave of Poles.
Getting an NI number used to be easy : "TN" their date of birth "DDMMYY" and then the day of the week it was issued A to H

It was a joke and tens of thousands of such numbers took years to unravel.
Now it takes a few weeks to get an NI number.
Without an NI number you can only work illegally
and HMRC and the Home office are devoting resources to clamping down on such because its great PR.

Once you have an NI number you are more likely to get on and work and pay tax as the benefit environment in the UK is pretty dire compared with much of europe.

Talk1n exactly.

Though as I said you can't always tell exactly where a given person comes from.

Sorry posted too soon. We have people in the country I live in who have been unable to get residence permits because the government does not believe that they come from where they say they come from. But they don't have papers. So they cannot go anywhere (ie cannot be deported) and are also not allowed to stay.

But I digress. The point I was trying to make is that most people can't disguise their origins for long. And look at Hirsi Ali, a brilliant politician, who was stripped of her Dutch citizenship when the govt decided she had lied on her asylum application many years before.