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Barrister claiming sexism after Linked-In message

429 replies

Flashbangandgone · 10/09/2015 14:20

AIBU to think she's overreacting somewhat... I'm not sure so I thought I'd check out views on here:

www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/34206080/linkedin-sexism-row-charlotte-proudman-says-lawyer-used-site-like-tinder

She is clearly very attractive, and she has clearly gone to some trouble to post a photo that emphasises that. If a man compliments her for that, albeit rather clumsily, but nonetheless not in any lewd or crude manner, is that sexist or just a man gently flirting in the hope of a positive response?

If something as relatively innocuous as this appears to be is vilified as sexism, what are the boundaries for men flirting in a work-place environment without risking being charged with sexism? I wonder if her response would have been different if she had been single and she happenned to be attracted to the man making those remarks...

I've a feeling this might be controversial....

OP posts:
Lweji · 12/09/2015 13:01

You were commenting about clothes, whether you realised it or not.
Which is why it was doubly a bad example.

PHANTOMnamechanger · 12/09/2015 13:02

The comments we know about were not unthinking, because they were both prefaced with phrases acknowledging that he shouldn't be saying them

very true grunt, i take that point. I still think women can be conditioned to beleive that sort of uninvited commenting on a womans appearance is normal, if they spend a lot of time living with a bloke like that who thinks casual sexism is fine.

Egosumquisum · 12/09/2015 13:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

laureywilliams · 12/09/2015 13:08

There are bound to be recruiters/clients that will be put off by Proudman's complaint.

Then there are others who will be attracted to her because of it (perhaps particularly because of the area she works in). I suspect they are the people she is hoping to be working with in future.

Let's face it she's not stupid. Probably planned much of this.

Good for her - it has certainly demonstrated how much the media/social media has made this about her rather than Carter-Silk.

The papers are filled with every bit of 'dirt' they can find on her personal life as if its relevant or newsworthy.

For anyone who doesn't think it was sexist, there is no way he would have sent this to a senior female colleague.

BoneyBackJefferson · 12/09/2015 13:15

If there is a reason that her career has been damaged, surely it is that she has shown a lack of media savvy,

Either she did this in the knowledge that it would go public and thought that she would be completely supported.

She did this in the knowledge that it would go public and didn't think that her own comments would be put under scrutiny

Or she did this and didn't think that it would go public.

InimitableJeeves · 12/09/2015 13:17

Reading a bit now, I see that she is not currently working. It all feels like a calculated publicity stunt to me.

Apart from the fact that she actually is working on her PhD, I really cannot see the logic of this. If you are going to do a publicity stunt, you do it when you are in a position to maximise it, i.e. when you are immediately available to take advantage of the increase in clients that you hope your publicity stunt will bring about. You don't do the publicity stunt on the footing that you hope you might get clients from it a year later - it just doesn't happen.

Lweji · 12/09/2015 13:19

For all we know this went exactly the way she expected it to go.

Exposure of sexism at many levels, not least of all in the press and even supported by women.

Egosumquisum · 12/09/2015 13:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Scremersford · 12/09/2015 16:18

Cote Maybe they would. The point was that recruiters will think twice before they hire someone who went so publicly berserk over "Your picture is stunning". They have to weigh in the possibility that a similar scenario will take place one day if a male colleague or a business contact makes the mistake of saying "You look stunning today" and gets dragged down social media and national newspapers, with all the negative publicity that would entail.

Do you realise how little you know about what you are trying to write about? Its a bit embarrassing to read. What recruiters do you think "hire" barristers? Do you imagine that barristers send their cvs off to employment agencies and suchlike? Do you think that's how that profession works? Carter-Silk is a solicitor, and while solicitors might do that, it is simply not possible for barristers.

As for your "publicly berserk" comment - that's just really, really funny to read, so exaggerated and outlandish is it. Goodness knows how you would describe someone who did actually have a proper breakdown in the workplace. You would presumably run out of hypberbole to describe it!

It is a different matter if there were proper sexual harassment, but that is another matter. HR would take quick action against the man in that case. Even then, they would not look kindly upon the employee who publicises emails and causes a public relations disaster to the company she is working for.

It is indeed, since I estimate that if Carter-Silk had made two similar comments, it would have amounted to sexual harassment. On its own, it is probably not grossly offensive enough to amount to it. However there is certainly something sexually harassing/offensive about it, and repeated incidents of the same or similar would do. So he is a real fool for putting himself in that position, in writing, when he supposed to be selling his knowledge of the law to clients.

I do wonder though what sort of HR Department barristers might have, and these HR people that aren't going to "look kindly" on them or indeed the "companies" that they work for. Clue - barristers are self-employed, must be formally instructed by solicitors and are definitely not permitted to form limited liability companies (neither are solicitors).

FWIW I'd hate to be one of those timid people, terrified to speak out for themselves in case they offend all sorts of imaginary people. Although I think its probably worth your while checking some basic facts before you do all that pseudo-strict sounding outpouring of words, because what you have written above is pretty nonsensical.

larrygrylls · 12/09/2015 18:54

This is a very modern thing when being a 'victim' or 'survivor' is better than being a success.

Sure, Carter-Silk was 'inappropriate' but since when was inappropriate such a big deal? I do challenge the faux indignation that Linked In is a professional network. It isn't, it is an open network mainly for professional networking, but not exclusively. Why would anyone put a picture on a purely professional network? In fact, pictures are now generally barred from CVs to prevent people's judgment being biased. And her comments on Facebook (from what were reported) were not to real friends but to people that she had effectively connected with on Facebook. They don't sound like comments to people she knew, but to people whose 'friend' requests she had accepted, not the same thing at all. Of course, I stand to be corrected if anyone KNOWS (rather than speculates) better.

His comments were inappropriate but neither sexist not misogynistic. It is perfectly possible to compliment someone on their looks and still see them as a 'whole person' and respect them professionally. This bifurcation where one has to choose either the one or the other is entirely false.

Proudman would have done herself far prouder had she calmly acted professionally and just told him privately to confine his comments to professional matters. As soon as she 'called' him on it publicly, she chose the status of 'offended' and 'victim' over her professional and academic reputation. Now everyone will associate her with Carter-Silk rather than for her own impressive successes.

No one comes out of this well.

JanetBlyton · 12/09/2015 19:06

Oh come on.... he didn't say a 60 year old woman had the bst photograph on linkedin as the quality of lighting was good or a young man. He was driven by lust with that comment. We all know that and he knows that and he was amazingly stupid to make it when a small glance at her work/profile would have told him that was just about the worst person in England to send such a message to. To have earlier said his daughter looked very hot on a photo is very very strange too. Who says that about their children?

bumbleymummy · 12/09/2015 19:09

Lweji

"Since when a woman approaching a man in a professional context gives free licence to chat her up or comment on her image?"

I didn't say it did. Some people earlier in the thread implied that he contacted her out of the blue purely because he liked her photo. This wasn't the case and I was pointing that out.

larrygrylls · 12/09/2015 19:10

Yes, strange, I said neither came out of it well. Oohlala on a random fb post does not come across well from someone who blogs against objectification, either.

Lweji · 12/09/2015 20:11

Sorry, as it had been discussed earlier in the thread that she had approached him first, and it wasn't clear on your post, I didn't think you were pointing it out simply to clarify it.

bumbleymummy · 12/09/2015 20:24

That's ok Lweji.

nooka · 12/09/2015 21:30

I use LinkedIn a lot because I work in a niche industry and so it's one of the few venues to have really interesting discussions on my field. I have a photograph on my profile because it's the convention, in the same way that I use my own name and have my CV on my profile. Not having a photograph or using an image other than your photo is considered unprofessional. Given that if you google my name you will find photographs of me from conferences it would be a bit pointless to try and cover up the fact that I am a female in any case. But it does make you slightly vulnerable. Like Charlotte I have a professional quality but neutral photograph, very similar to my male colleagues.

Her photo not 'stunning' but totally ordinary, and calling her out on her appearance is a really shit thing to do. I am always worried about being propositioned or having other weird mails simply because I am a woman in a pretty male field. I have met very few of my connections - most aren't even in my country, I 'trust' them because of their connections, qualifications or posts (mainly the latter).

I'm glad that Charlotte decided to publicise her experience because it highlights a significant issue that general lechery towards female professional colleagues still seems to something that women should just 'suck up'.

I'm surprised that she doesn't have her Facebook locked down though. I have nothing more than my name visible on mine.

nooka · 12/09/2015 21:51

I also think that he was pretty stupid to send a sexist message to someone who describes herself as a 'feminist legal activist', and his back tracking was absolutely ridiculous and totally not credible.

I also don't really see why her twitter is considered quite so provocative, she said: 'How many women @LinkedIn are contacted re physical appearance rather than prof skills?' and tagged one friend and a special interest group on objectification. I can't imagine she has millions of followers either (or didn't before this blew up anyway)

pickledsiblings · 12/09/2015 21:56

'That is a stunning picture' is not the same as 'you are stunning'. She 's a bit vain don't you think?

ALassUnparalleled · 12/09/2015 22:22

She is considering reporting him to the Solicitors Regulatory Authority. I am a solicitor in Scotland and I don't consider this would merit a report to the Scottish equivalent.

If he were a partner in my firm we would not be happy with him at all and he would probably be sent on compulsory diversity and equality training. I don't think it would be a resigning issue (although for any firm which provides advice to public sector/ government agencies there is likely to be a need to do some explaining and confirm they understand diversity and equality) If he were an employee it would be a disciplinary but not a dismissal matter.

If she were an solicitor, rather than a barrister, whether partner or employee I would not be happy with the way she handled this. I was discussing with 2 of my female partners and a female employee all of whom thought he was out of order but so was her response. However she is self-employed and its up to her.

I don't see why she contacted him in the first place - there's no apparent connection in their line of work.

Lweji · 12/09/2015 22:23

nooka

Probably because he looked at the photo and ignored all other descriptors.

RaisingSteam · 12/09/2015 22:25

Actually most people put a picture on Linkedin because although professional, it's still a relationship between human beings and it's easier to relate to a person when you can visualise their face IMO. Now it's standard for headshots to be plastered all over emails, websites and CV's you might as well have a decent picture.

The ACS comment wasn't only "stunning photo" but a lot of flapping about "i'm going to be politically incorrect here" he was basically making it clearer than clear it was a flirty/lecherous comment.

I still think the whole exchange makes him look far more of a twit than her. Duh! Grandpa! Cutie little women these days are kick-ass lawyers and engineers and everything these days you know. Even if they wear make up and high heels. It's a generation gap as much as anything. I expect most 50-something female lawyers are terrifying due to what they've put up with to last that long.

BoffinMum · 12/09/2015 22:28

Some pretty uncomplimentary stories about her in the paper today. She doesn't sound like someone I would want to work with.

BoffinMum · 12/09/2015 22:29

Apparently she is actually a PhD student at Cambridge.

Cerseirys · 12/09/2015 22:38

I wouldn't believe any of the stories about her that the Mail and Telegraph have dug up.

Egosumquisum · 12/09/2015 22:40

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