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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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migrants - AIBU to wonder how this will all work out ?

999 replies

lovelyconverse123 · 04/09/2015 20:27

My understanding of the migrant crisis is that the majority of the migrants are coming from countries which do not, in any way, share or support Western beliefs/values/way of life. They are now flooding into Western Europe in the hundreds of thousands. Nobody knows who they are or their background in their home country. AIBU to wonder what will be the result of this ?

They are fleeing war/violence etc. AIBU to wonder why, when they reach Hungary, which is a 'safe' country, (although economically depressed), is it not good enough and they are determined to reach Germany, UK, Austria etc ?

AIBU to wonder why the majority of these migrants feel it is acceptable to stampede through European law immigration procedures to reach their chosen country rather than wait and be correctly processed in the 'safe country they have landed in ? Surely if a person has landed in a 'safe' country, after witnessing goodness knows what in their home country, they should respect and adhere to the policies and procedures of that country ?

AIBU to wonder how this will all work out ?

I would like to hear your calm and measured thoughts please................

OP posts:
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sleepyelectricsheep · 05/09/2015 09:57

Recent studies show that areas with high levels of immigrants gave LOWER crime rates than the general population.

MillionToOneChances · 05/09/2015 10:11

Those who threw the food and water had likely bought tickets to Germany and were not being allowed to leave. They're trapped in Hungary, being treated very badly, and then a load of people wearing face masks (like they were walking into a load of plague-infested vermin) brought food and water, presumably because the train migrants had been allowed to buy a ticket for is going nowhere. There was a NYTimes article about them being banned from trains and then tricked onto empty trains going to a camp.

meadowquark · 05/09/2015 10:15

Hungary is just following the law. I have nothing against the genuine refugees, but the situation is clearly attracting economic migrants trying to sneak along and this is not right.

StealthPolarBear · 05/09/2015 10:17

As a person who is pretty much ignorant of what is going on I am finding this thread very informative

Cerseirys · 05/09/2015 10:26

shabby, if I judged a race by street harassment then I'd be pretty against white people but I don't let the actions of a few influence my opinion of the whole because that would be a bit racist.

LilMissSunshine9 · 05/09/2015 10:27

There are other articles where Syria were asked wy they don't want to stay in Hungary and they are quoted saying it is because Hungary and Greece are poor and they want to go to countries who will give them money ...so its not all about Hungary not big a safe country. That's economic migration. They want to go to Germany because it is richer not because it is more safer. So in that case they then should follow the process of applying like other people have to.

Whoknewitcouldbeso · 05/09/2015 10:29

I had to chuckle when the great philanthropist Bob Geldof said he would open the doors to some of his other houses to four refugee families 'for as long as they needed to get on their feet'. Oh whoopdeedoo. You don't fancy flogging one of your London pads and donating the money to a refugee charity then? Or giving up some of your millions and going something that might actually help long term? Noooooo, because that would involve lowering your millionaire standard of living.

I'm waiting for Bono to come forward and announce something equally as compelling. Perhaps a day trip around one of his mansions or some free tickets to some U2 concerts. By the way he has just made hundreds of millions off his Facebook share so he probably has a few dollars under his mattress to offer a refugee.

IPityThePontipines · 05/09/2015 10:30

Europa - I see you're quite happy to live in Saudi Arabia and pocket their money, but also equally happy to use your "inside knowledge" to paint all Muslims as subhuman automatons. I hope you tell all your Arab Muslim cowokers how you really feel, but I doubt it.

FYI, Syria does not only have Muslims living there. Most people fleeing will have been used to having Christian and Druze neighbours and friends who they happily lived and worked alongside.

As for all the "I would do x, y, z" posts, there are no easy choices in these circumstances.

My sister-in-law is still in Syria.

They had to flee their home under gunfire to somewhere "safer". They have barely enough food. Electricity and heating are a rarity. They frequently have to hide indoors when shelling happens. She says living there is like waiting to die. Her and her family have been living like this for over 4 years.

But there's no safe route out and no guarantee of safety once you escape. We can't get them out. So what would you do?

Whoknewitcouldbeso · 05/09/2015 10:32

How could I forget Mumsnet favourite Russell Brand!!! Anyone have any idea what his brilliant mind has to say on the subject or is he being suspiciously quiet since he got so badly heckled during the austerity march?

LilMissSunshine9 · 05/09/2015 10:33

Even worse that Bono will only.open his doors to Syrian refugees but won't help the homeless here. But hey doesn't make for that great a story does it.

SoThisIsSummer · 05/09/2015 10:42

I had to chuckle when the great philanthropist Bob Geldof said he would open the doors to some of his other houses to four refugee families 'for as long as they needed to get on their feet'

Imagine the land and grounds at his country pad, imagine how many he could house in super nice yurts and so on, with luxury loo's like all these luxury camping things! He could get hundreds in.

but also equally happy to use your "inside knowledge" to paint all Muslims as subhuman automatons

I didn't interpret that post in that way at all. But Islam is a way of life to a greater degree than christianity and the cultures of Saudi are not as advanced in terms of democracy etc as western ones are.

hattyhatter · 05/09/2015 10:42

I think BG was offering to share his living space with refugee families, bot in his Faversham and Battersea homes. Which is different from lending out a 'spare' home, TBF.

Nonnainglese · 05/09/2015 10:42

I have enormous sympathy for those fleeing Syria however the majority of people at Calais are from Iran and Iraq and quite openly admit to leaving their wives and children behind.
I struggle to believe that they are all refugees.

And before I get shot down, dd is working for the Red Cross who are in the Calais Jungle.

SoThisIsSummer · 05/09/2015 10:44

dd is working for the Red Cross who are in the Calais Jungle

so how do you know they openly admit to leaving them behind and are they due to join the?

OddlyLogical · 05/09/2015 10:47

I am also worried about large numbers of Muslims taking over Christian societies.
Really? Where is that happening then? Please tell me any example of a Christian society being taken over by Muslims. Are people not allowed to be Christian anymore if they choose to be? Or even Atheist? No Muslim has tried to change any aspect of my life. Some Muslims may choose not to integrate very much, but I could say the same for some of the Jewish or Romany communities. It doesn't affect anyone else.
That ridiculous list posted by Moreshabbythanchic is meaningless twaddle that ranges from untrue to no-one else's business to the ironic lack of tolerance going both ways.

Nonnainglese · 05/09/2015 10:51

No, they're finding the majority have no intention of bringing their families out, they seem to see Britain as a land of milk and honey and she was disgusted that so many say they want 'White wife so we can stay'. It's really sad hearing her so dispirited.
She's also become very sceptical about many of their true motives and apparently many, many leave to avoid their equivalent of National Service, which admittedly is tough.

IndridCold · 05/09/2015 10:59

I'm ancient enough to remember the big arrivals of both the Ugandan Asians and the Vietnamese boat people, and even though there were obviously grumblings from various sources on the whole it was seen as a good thing and everyone got on with it.

This is very different. The papers might be going on about how Britain is going to welcome in hundreds of thousands of refugees, but read the comments sections and it's a very different story. And I'm not talking Daily Mail either, I'm looking at the Times and even the Guardian! People around me are also worried about how this will all play out.

I think the Muslim element is a factor behind people's concerns, but it is mainly the sheer numbers which has highlighted the total lack of control over the situation. The news last week was about the government's failure to control immigration, with net migration at over 300,000. And now they want to let another 200,000 Syrians. That's a population increase of half a million in one year.

Add to this, no one can see an end to the numbers of people who will still want to come. Syria's population is 20 million plus, half of which is already displaced and on the move!

Finally, this latest concession is to take refugees from Syria, yet Channel 4 news was talking to people at Budapest station from Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan and various other places where life is pretty crap. It is like an unstoppable flow, and that does put people on the defensive.

EuropaFanatic · 05/09/2015 11:23

PuttingoutthefirewithGasoline no my user name comes from my adoration of a particular vehicle, shallow I know, but I don't hide from it :-)

It is a totally different mind set that is demanded of you by the ideology you are born into.

I am not religious at all but even I can see the polar differences.

Andante58 · 05/09/2015 11:24

Bertie - 300 million people working in UK? Are you really sure about that figure?
I thought the whole population was around 63 million including children and OAPs.

PuttingouthefirewithGasoline · 05/09/2015 11:38

Ah Smile

I had personal witness to an almost evangelical christian who stayed with me for a month. Her mother and father were sunday school teacher and ran baby groups for the faith too.

Every single thing she did was always without fail linked back to God. Her brain and all her ideas were fused with it, they were in separable.

It was fascinating but also scary to bear witness too.

EuropaFanatic · 05/09/2015 11:41

IPityThePontipines

Have some sense and don't put words in my mouth, I didnt "paint all Muslims as subhuman automatons", I clearly said they are committed to their ideology and cultural identity and that moving to a Country with a different outlook does not mean they won't push to propagate their own ideology, because they will, this is their ideology and it will eventually lead to a clash of cultures. I actually admire their determination to retain their cultural identity and ideology, it's something we in the West should Lear from.

And yes, I am classed as an Economic Migrant and while I enjoy my hosts benevolence I make a point of being respectful of their beliefs and traditions and not least their Laws.

BoffinMum · 05/09/2015 11:46

Lonelyconverse123, in the mass migration we are largely seeing the consequences of climate change, and water shortages. Here is an explanation of the complexities of the Syrian situation.

A lot of Syrians originally came from rural areas where the 2006-2011 drought pretty much annihilated their farmland. There was massive scuffling over water rights and this became highly politicised.

After an event where some teenagers wrote graffiti on a school wall indicating they wanted their own Arab Spring, the teenagers were brutally tortured by the state. This caused an uprising. The graffiti was seen by the state as an attempt to topple the Assad regime, which was highly authoritarian and at that time giving water rights to political favourites.

Meanwhile deprived of a means of earning a living via farming, people started moving to towns and cities, putting great pressure on resources there, especially water. This, amongst other things, led to civil war. Since then large areas of the cities have been flattened. Tension is rife.

Now to bring this to life, imagine if you had moved from drought-ridden rural Norfolk to live in Luton, say, and suddenly Cambridge had been taken over by IS, London was run by an authoritarian regime, and Peterborough was occupied by resistance forces. These affiliations regularly changed so you could never be sure who was in charge of which area. Your home was subject to shelling every day, you were now living in the garage, there was no longer any local infrastructure or schools, and kidnapping was rife. Would you just sit there? Or where would you go?

Would you cross the Channel? If so, would you claim asylum in Calais and just take whatever reluctant crumbs Northern France offered you as one of literally thousands of unwanted incomers, or would you think, "Actually, my auntie has a villa in Spain, I ought to head down there with my kids and start a new life with backup and support" or "My second cousin has their own business in Canada. We should try to emigrate there as I know I will be able to get a job" or "I learned German in school rather than French, we should probably head there as I have a better chance of finding work and putting this behind me". In many ways, it is a good thing that people are seeking to distribute themselves throughout developed countries, rather than accumulate at certain hotspots at borders (where they would be sitting ducks for further hostilities anyway) and use the resources and networks already available to them where possible to move on. This is in actual fact an ideal situation from the point of view of the efficient use of space and resources, and it also promotes distributed integration.

Therefore the thinking processes and the behaviours of the refugees simply represent exactly what we would all do in the same situation. So it's entirely unreasonable to criticise other people for trying to spread out through Europe etc to places where they think they will be able to make an effective fresh start, hopefully with the support of friends and family. It is particularly unreasonable to punish them for a climate change problem we all contributed to. In addition, the role of religion in this is and should be negligible. These are people, it is a global problem, and we owe it to others to do what we can.

I have every confidence that those given asylum here and elsewhere in Europe will integrate as well as my Jewish, Ismaeli and Vietnamese neighbours and indeed my own family members from diverse backgrounds have over the years. The idea that Syrians, Afghans, Iraquis, Eritreans and so on are somehow less entitled to the type of settled, ordered, productive lives we are able to enjoy here is frankly abhorrent. As is the idea that Islam is a threat. It is not. Authoritarianism is the threat, combined with unstable regimes and the consequences of climate change. It is time we turned our attention to those rather than attempting to penalise their victims.

UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 05/09/2015 11:46

This thread has given me a depressing new insight into why so many people died in the Holocaust. Lots of Polish Jews who dressed funny and had a weird religion and probably wouldn't integrate, properly, right?

My thoughts exactly.

BoffinMum · 05/09/2015 11:49

I will summarise my post's conclusion in the vernacular.

Bloody shove up and make room on your proverbial sofa. Stop pretending there isn't room.

Whoknewitcouldbeso · 05/09/2015 11:50

Yes so many Jews died in the Holocaust because our good friends Germany gassed most of them.