To ask if anyone else had a 'late' toilet trainer? DC1 may be refused nursery entry as he isn't dry.

[HackerFucker22]

DC1 is almost 3 and in my non expert opinion is nowhere near ready to toilet train. We've tried on and off for a few months now and not once have we had a wee where it is supposed to go (we're leaving potty's down and offering toilet ... I have a seat to go over loo and a step). We have big boy pants and we've even tried some bribery. So far so bad.

DC1 is due to start nursery immediately after his 3rd Birthday and the policy is that they only accept dry children I am not sure on the flexibility of this nor the 'legalities' but to say I am stressed is an understatement. I don't want to pass this onto DC though.

I have a meeting with teacher tomorrow and will ask but I'm scared DC1 is going to lose his nursery place. Is this a possibility?

I completely understand why they have the 'must be dry' policy but surely my child isn't the only child to not be dry? Surely they must have some kind of workaround as obviously you cannot force them to toilet train to a schedule?

There are no SN involved. DC just isn't getting this at all bless him. We're on our 3rd pair of pants of the day already.

Any words of wisdom or advice appreciated.

I'm a relic of the olden days of cloth nappies, SAHMs and no washing machine until expecting my 3rd. From about 1yr my eldest always did a poo after breakfast so I tried putting him on the pot at that time to save having to wash an extra nappy. I certainly didn't regard it as potty training. He was clean and dry during the day by his 3rd birthday, so we tried leaving off nappies at night. He wasn't ready, so I told him we'd try again when the baby was born. She was 2 days old when he told me he didn't want a nappy anymore. My other children followed the same sort of pattern. For me the main spur was having fewer nappies to wash. It seems nowadays children are in nappies longer, but the actual potty training period is far shorter.

I am asking people's views as to why this is happening.

And dismissing those that tell you otherwise.

Jason - I don't believe it is rose tinting at all. The age at which children are toilet trained has risen over the last few decades. A brief search of the Internet clearly shows that.

NHS tells me the average age to start is still 18 to 24 months.

And has been since 1970.

Littlefish - Make sure you don't have US results about potty training when you search the internet.

That's interesting eddiemairswife

"It seems nowadays children are in nappies longer, but the actual potty training period is far shorter".

I hadn't considered that.

OP - if the nursery continue to insist that your ds is toilet trained before starting nursery then I suggest you ring your Local Authority Inclusion Team and raise the issue with them.

My DTs (boys) are 3.5yrs now and I've only just got them into using the potty properly this last week. They just were not ready, we have been trying for the past 6 months every day and it's finally clicked. They are clever little chaps (learning to read etc) but you can't force them if they are not ready, it just causes stress and tears (mainly mine) your little boy will do it in his own time. I wanted to offer you a ray of hope that it WILL happen x

Pretty normal on day one. Is there a reason he has pants and trousers on?

Mine were both trained by 2, 20 years ago - not because I was Supermum but because that's when they outgrew Pampers - they literally wouldn't fasten. Now when I go shopping with my sis for nappies for her two, I'm amazed at the sizes they go up to!

I think that nappies are so effective at keeping them dry, they don't realise when they're wet.

some stupid comments on here nurserys are not allowed to refuse a child who is not toil;et trained nor should they be asking parents to come and clean there child up if they poo my son has asd and learning disabillities he is five and goes to a s/n school he isnt toilet trained yetand i think itwill be a long slow process it really isnt an issue at his school as a lot of children are not toilet trained due to their disabillities but even when he went to nursery[mainstream] i just sent him in pullups with wipes and provided the nursery with pullups not once was i called into change him and i would have kicked up a huge fuss if i had he was diagnosed with asd and learning disabillities in the xmas of his nursery year so they were fully aware of his delays.

He wanted pants on as he didn't want to be bare bummed. I let him pick his own pants. He has been in pants and a top only, no trousers?

I think it is unlawful to have a blanket policy of "must be dry" ("Any admissions policy that sets a blanket standard of continence, or any other aspect of development, for all children is discriminatory and therefore unlawful under the Act. All such issues should be dealt with on an individual basis, and settings are expected to make reasonable adjustments to meet the needs of each child").

I think where the school/nursery can refuse is that if despite reasonable adjustments the problems remain, and is not related to a medical problem/disability/developmental delay etc, then they can refuse admission/ask child to be removed.

So no, they can't have a blanket policy. I'm not at all sure what count as "reasonable adjustments" or "dealt with on an individual basis" actually mean in practice. I don't know if they may still be able to refuse on some basis "having considered this case on it's merits' or something like that.

Sorry, not much help really.

On a more general point, I do think most children (barring specific medical problems, disability/SEN) should be toilet trained by the time they start school (not nursery) shouldn't they? Of course accidents (especially when starting school) should be expected in young children, but they should be continent most of the time by school age, I would have thought.

I found letting mine watch me in the toilet helped. And putting teddies on the potty and praising them (even if you do feel silly)

I do think most children should be toilet trained by the time they start school (not nursery) shouldn't they?

And most are, It works out at 1,600 who are not, Which is just under 2 every year in each school, That is mostly accounted for by diagnosed and undiagnosed SN.

What if they were dry on entering nursery and then, due to a family bereavement or a new baby etc type change, they regress to wetting and soiling again.....would the nursery refuse them? Of course not.

They cannot know that it isn't a medical problem or disability. It could be a childs only additional need. They can get other agencies involved but they should not refuse to take the child.

My DS was 3 years 3 months. But then it was overnight.

I would propose sending him in pull ups and for him to take them and put them on himself.

I would discuss it thoroughly with nursery before panicking.

HackerFucker, our nursery had no problem with children not being trained, indeed there were a few in pull-ups. My DS was dry in terms of wee but with ASD and sensory issues, I have only just managed to get him out of pull-up's for poo over this summer holiday (he is 4 1/2) which has been a bit of a slog to be honest. I am really dreading him needing a poo during school hours as he starts full time next week and I am anticipating problems with this.

In terms of potty training, I used to buy the cheapest nappies (ie : £1.47 Tesco Value jobs) as they feel wet much much quicker. My eldest was completely dry within 2 weeks of using these and we didn't look back. Worked well with DS (but not with poo obviously), but he was also potty trained very quickly as couldn't bear the wetness. It might be worth a try? Good luck

I think the expectation for what toilet training is has changed over the years for many reasons - the ease/cost of nappies and parents being at work being big ones.

It used to be that toilet training was done over a period of time, maybe from 18 months children were sat on a potty regularly. At 2 it was expected that there would be a couple of weeks of toilet training that might involve staying at home for a few days and concentrating on it.

Now the idea is that you leave it as long as possible and then the child pretty much does it themselves. "Readiness" is defined as taking the nappy off and no accidents.

It used to be quite reasonable to potty train a child who wasn't fully verbal, hadn't shown any particular interest in toileting themselves and needed help with clothes. Now if someone posts on MN to say they've had a go at potty training their 2 or even 3 year old but on day 2 they're still having accidents, they got lots of replies saying "not ready".

I've definitely noticed social/cultural differences in when people toilet train, and I think a lot of it comes down to whether that social group tends to learn child rearing practices from books and the internet, or from extended families.

I was prepared to clean up children. I was told by my line manager and the ht that we were not allowed to touch/clean up a child after an accident. I also thought it was ridiculous that we couldn't change children. I was told it was safeguarding and h+s. We required two members of staff to supervise wet changing with no physical contact. Meaning 38 children would be left with one member of staff. I don't agree with the policy we had, I explained our policy as was for the OP in order to maybe offer an opinion from my experience

Sounds suspiciously like part of a no touch or handling policy. Those are the things that the DoE actively States is a safeguarding risk to have and that no setting should have them!

Reading one of the posts on here you would be forgiven for thing we were talking about a 10yo about to start senior school or something not a 2yo toddler

I'm really surprised that this is still an issue. 12 years ago, DS's pre-school had this policy, so he started after 2.5 years. A year or so later, as chair of the committee which ran the pre-school, we received advice through the pre-school learning alliance that such continence policies were likely to be unlawful. I presume all other PSLA-affiliated pre-schools received the advice at exactly the same time.

We changed our policy,. I can't believe that anywhere is still, 11 years later, not implementing the law...

I would say, btw, that a large number of accidents for a few days is normal. If the number doesn't decrease over a week, then your child isn't getting it. A certain amount of 'spotting the wiggle that means he needs to go' may be handy too - because if you manage one success, even partial, then you can go over the top on praise which might start a virtuous cycle.

It helped me - DS was DIFFICULT - to think of each stage as a success - being willing to sit on the potty / loo for a period of time was a success, doing a wee if you had encouraged him to sit on it was another success, asking to go was a success, actually making it to the potty after asking to go was a BIG success....

(DD was unreliable for poo right into primary, and was into double figures before he was totally dry at night...)

I've not read the whole thread but my nephew was still in nappies at the end of reception. It was fine although the school had a no changing policy, which meant that if he did need changing he would need to wait it out, which meant that he often had an uncomfortable rash.
I am on the governing body of my children's primary school (including nursery) and over the past few years they have had to bring in a nappy policy becuase an increasing number of children are not potty trained by the time they reach school age. Their policy is much the same as it was in my nephew's school. At nursery it would be less of a problem as they are only there for a few hours, but it must be uncomfortable for the child, and not to mention those around them. Imagine winter when doors are shut and there are a few dirty nappies that need changing, it wouldn't be pleasn't for anyone. Do you live close enough to be able to change her if she needs it? Afaik the policies they have are due to child protection and having to take too many adults away from the classroom, plus facilities. They might be happier if you are able to nip in mid session and freshen her up yourself.

Our school nursery has 6 children starting in nappies next week so it's a shame yours isn't more helpful.

In terms of training we started training our PFB last week (so I'm no expert). The first 2 days wearing just pants and a t shirt were horrendous : Monday : 1 poo and 1 wee on potty; 2 wee accidents
3 poop accidents

Tuesday :
2 wees half on potty & floor (because I raced to put potty under him)
2 wees on floor
1 poo in pants
1 poo in potty (pants up)
Followed by lots of tears. I honestly thought that was it we'd give up so Wednesday morning I offered him a nappy he said no he wanted pants so I went with it and this is what's happened since : Wednesday :
3 wees on the potty

Thursday :
Woke up dry
3 wees on potty at nursery
3 wees on potty at home
1 poo on potty at home

Friday:
Woke up dry
1 wee on potty at home
3 wees on the potty at home
1 poo on the potty at home

Saturday:
Woke up dry
2 wees in potty at home
1 poo/wee accident at nans
1 poo/wee in potty at nans
1 wee in potty at home

Sunday:
1 wee at home on potty
2 wees on potty out
poo accident at nans
2 wees on potty at home

So that's 2 poo accidents in 5 days and tbh were purely because he was completely distracted by his nans.

I guess my point is it is possible tgat after a couple of awful days it may just click. We had no signs before trying : as in he didn't ever tell us he'd done a poo or wee in his nappy, didn't give any signs he was going, didn't hide etc and yet he clearly was ready. If I were you I'd try again this week, stay in as much as possible and if you go out one tip I heard was to put a pull up over the pants, that way they get the uncomfortable feeling, know they've had an accident and will need sorting but won't have ti change trousers etc (although we didn't do this while out I just carried a potty).

Also we switched the traditional small potty for a chair type potty : www.argos.co.uk/m/static/Product/partNumber/1415034.htm?CMPID=GS001&_$ja=cgid:18074274565%7Ctsid:59156%7Ccid:189942085%7Clid:96719341765%7Cnw:g%7Ccrid:77627772445%7Crnd:3543762816128882713%7Cdvc:m%7Cadp:1o1%7Cbku:1&gclid=CIGh5IjR08cCFUrpwgodv6QLKA which he really likes and looks much more comfortable on. Finally I also backed off asking him if he needed to go as he was getting annoyed at me and refusing to try, I found that when I stopped asking soooo much and gave him responsibility he told me when he needed to go.

Sorry for the essay, hope there are some helpful tips - it's a minefield eh.

Afaik the policies they have are due to child protection
Leaving a child sitting in shit is a child protection issue! If parents did this it would be neglect, appalling that a school would

Lots of helpful advice and food for thought. MN at its best. It's much appreciated.

I'll read through the guidelines, give it a few more days (well rest of the week) and see if we make any progress with accidents and then reassess. Will also speak to teacher tomorrow and see what the official policy is.