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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To ask if anyone else had a 'late' toilet trainer? DC1 may be refused nursery entry as he isn't dry.

157 replies

HackerFucker22 · 31/08/2015 11:59

DC1 is almost 3 and in my non expert opinion is nowhere near ready to toilet train. We've tried on and off for a few months now and not once have we had a wee where it is supposed to go (we're leaving potty's down and offering toilet ... I have a seat to go over loo and a step). We have big boy pants and we've even tried some bribery. So far so bad.

DC1 is due to start nursery immediately after his 3rd Birthday and the policy is that they only accept dry children I am not sure on the flexibility of this nor the 'legalities' but to say I am stressed is an understatement. I don't want to pass this onto DC though.

I have a meeting with teacher tomorrow and will ask but I'm scared DC1 is going to lose his nursery place. Is this a possibility?

I completely understand why they have the 'must be dry' policy but surely my child isn't the only child to not be dry? Surely they must have some kind of workaround as obviously you cannot force them to toilet train to a schedule?

There are no SN involved. DC just isn't getting this at all bless him. We're on our 3rd pair of pants of the day already.

Any words of wisdom or advice appreciated.

OP posts:

Aeroflotgirl · 31/08/2015 14:20

No they cannot refuse him, that is wrong, I would co,plain to Ifstead and the LEA. Ds 3.7 years is not quite toilet trained yet, he us going in September to a nursery attached to the school, no problem said the staff. Send him in nappies or whatever. They will support me toilet training. No don't accept this, a lot of children that age are not tt or nit ready, it's developmental like walking and talking. Would they refuse a child with a speech delay, no they would not! Would they refuse a child who could not walk properly, no they would not!

Aeroflotgirl · 31/08/2015 14:20

ofstead I meant

MagicalMrsMistoffelees · 31/08/2015 14:23

I have been here and so feel your pain. I could have written the post at various times in the past. Both my older boys (now 8 and 5) were very hard to toilet train.

My now 8 year old was wet at home all the time when little. When he was about to start nursery at 3y 5m we were told in no uncertain terms that he needed to be dry and if he did have an accident he would be sent out of the room until somebody came to school to change him. That worried me senseless. As the start date approached I got so het up and even got cross with him when he had his accidents. I feel so guilty about that looking back and disappointed with the school for causing so much stress. As it turned out he was wet just once in the whole of his nursery year (and they changed him!!) and wet once in Reception! He was still damp at home but somehow able to control himself at school. Such a relief - it may be the same for you?

Our five year old is still 'damp' frequently and we just don't understand! He is lazy and gets caught up in stuff which is some excuse but sometimes, even if he's just been, he will be bursting again and be wet! So there must be more going on too. He was wet at least once a week (sometimes much more!) throughout he Autumn term in Reception. It was incredibly frustrating and sometimes we despaired but he didn't seem bothered! It got better throughout the year thank goodness.

The thing is, I'm a Reception teacher myself so I know the other side of things. But it's really not hard to change a child at school and they need the experience to be as unstressful and straightforward as possible. Some children just aren't ready at 3 or 4 or 5. They're not doing it on purpose and they need to know they're not bad or dirty or disgusting. Our nursery team were joking the other day about how they'll spend the entire Autumn term in the loo changing children. In other words, accidents are EXPECTED in nursery! Starting school is a big deal and accidents happen, even for children who are usually dry at home. Schools should be understanding and supportive of this - I'm glad I work in a school like that.

Children are ready when they're ready - good luck and try not to worry too much.

Littlefish · 31/08/2015 14:28

My question is absolutely not designed to criticise anyone, but I am really interested in other people's responses. I am an early years teacher (Nursery) and we happily accept children at all stages of continence and support toilet training when the parents think their child is ready.

Why do you think that children are fully toilet trained so much later now? I've spoken to my mum and she says that when I was toilet trained 45 years ago, I was really, really late, at 2 years 9 months.

I understand that cloth nappies were used, and therefore, if was probably less comfortable for the child, but is there more to it than that?

Lurkedforever1 · 31/08/2015 14:31

Not being goady just out of interest but with the legalities of refusing or getting parents to come and change them, couldn't they defend that by saying it would impact the staffing ratios for the rest of the class if 2 are off doing changes above the regularity of odd accidents? I'm not sure what the law is, but I imagine there is at least good practice guidelines on acceptable staff ratio for predictable everyday duties.

DelphiniumBlue · 31/08/2015 14:34

Have to say that your attempts at toilet training sound a little half hearted.
And generally speaking, I've noticed that the average age for being dry seems to be getting older.
2 of mine had to delay entry to nursery at 2.5 because they weren't dry, that was quite unusual 20 years ago.
What worked for mine ( by 2.7) was taking away nappies, and not giving them a choice. I put them on toilet or pot every hour, hardly left the house for 2 weeks, but kept at it. I think pull ups confuse the issue. After 2 weeks or so they were more or less reliably dry. Obviously you don't want to tell them off for an accident, but mild exasperation after a few doesn't hurt. There are very few who are not actually ready by 3, and a clear expectation on your vpart that they will use the toilet/ pot goes a long way. Don't just offer the opportunity, put the childcvon the pot or toilet, and stay with them there until something happens. You can read to them or chat whilst they are sitting there, it doesn't need to be boring or lonely. You have to be persistent, dont give up.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 31/08/2015 14:35

Two resons:
1: Children weren't allowed to start school until they were toilet trained, so teachers didn't see it.

Chidlren with SN were not in Main stream school, so teachers didn't see it.

honkinghaddock · 31/08/2015 14:38

Staffing issues are a school issue and are not relevant to parent of child or child having accidents or in nappies. This shouldn't even be brought up with a parent.

Original poster

HackerFucker22 · 31/08/2015 14:39

Persistence may be an issue (I have a baby too who is ebf and pretty demanding) but 4 accidents between 8am-1pm surely has to tell me he just isn't getting it? I was taking his pants off every half an hour or so and putting him on potty as well

OP posts:

Sidge · 31/08/2015 14:39

Littlefish it's probably a combination of modern pullups/nappies leaving a child much drier than old terry nappies, and maybe more mums tending to be SAHM in the early years and so practiced "toilet timing".

Many children reported as being toilet trained by 1 or 2 were unlikely to be fully continent so young, it's more likely that they were being put on the potty regularly and any wees and poos were caught!

Sidge · 31/08/2015 14:43

Oh and toileting every 30 mins to an hour isn't recommended routinely, as a child has to learn to recognise the feeling of a full bladder and be able to act on it. Two hourly is plenty.

Littlefish · 31/08/2015 14:45

Jason- I don't think the school thing is anything to do with it. 45 years ago, most children didn't go to Nursery as far as I know.

Children were generally toilet trained much earlier.

Were there more stay at home parents who had more time to devote to it?
Was washing the nappies such a pain that parents were more persistent?
Is there something about children's diets or lifestyle now that is making it more difficult for them to be toilet trained?

I really don't know, but there must be a reason.

insancerre · 31/08/2015 14:45

Gosh cocobear
You do realise leaving children in soiled clothing is neglect and a safeguarding issue?
How can you possibly meetvthw needs of children if you have a no touch policy?
Ridiculous
And neglectful
Children need contact
All the research says so.

Aeroflotgirl · 31/08/2015 14:46

hacker your ds does not sound ready. I would instead of taking him every half hour, just put the potty in the TV room of where he likes, show him where it is, he has to wee and poo there and take his cues. I was found the same as you for ds 3.7 years and it wasn't working. So I relaxed and put the potty in the TV room, he started taking himself to the potty and seeing in it, but with his pants on. This is where we're at, but I am happy. I am trying to show him how to pull his pants down but he keeps seeing in the potty with them on. Nursery are more than happy to take him.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 31/08/2015 14:47

Or has nothing really changed and the average age is the same?

That's the problem with people remembering 45 years ago, rose tinting.

Verbena37 · 31/08/2015 14:52

They cannot refuse to change him and shouldn't be stipulating in a state nursery he has to be dry (WTAF?)

Considering that if you take your 7/8 yr old to the GP about bed wetting, they won't generally refer to a Paed consultant until after 8yrs....because they say that all children have their own biological age at which they can be dry.

cocobean2805 · 31/08/2015 14:53

insancerre I've already said I didn't agree with it. Children were changed out of wet clothing asap. Children who pooed were changed out of the soiled pants, parents/guardian were called to notify and if necessary to collect. Children weren't left in soiled clothes for any length of time.

Verbena37 · 31/08/2015 14:53

I would also point the nursery in the direction of the ERIC website....so they're fully aware of how they could be creating toileting problems for years to come.

tobysmum77 · 31/08/2015 14:54

In other words, accidents are EXPECTED in nursery!

In my dd's case I'm pretty sure this is why she has accidents at nursery. Pissing in one's pants is part of the day..... If she was kept in another room until dh or I went to change her it would stop.

Littlefish · 31/08/2015 15:11

Jason - I don't believe it is rose tinting at all. The age at which children are toilet trained has risen over the last few decades. A brief search of the Internet clearly shows that.

I am not being critical, I am asking people's views as to why this is happening.

LibrariesGaveUsP0wer · 31/08/2015 15:13

Four accidents on what day? On the first day of trying that is really normal.

At least a couple of days, bare bum, staying in all day. If no wee in potty or loo by then he probably isn't ready.

It is a new skill.Not instant in most kids.

LibrariesGaveUsP0wer · 31/08/2015 15:16

Littlefish - I agree. I think a myth has developed that, if they are ready, they pretty much do it themselves. Some do, but a lot of even very ready children take a while. I have seen people convinced their child isn't ready because on day one they wet themselves. (This isn't directed at the OP. No idea her views or expectations). I think this and the ease of disposable has led to drifting upwards.

Nanny0gg · 31/08/2015 15:18

Years ago, babies were held over potties to wee - and often (by luck/good timing) they did. So habits were formed.

Cloth nappies are really uncomfortable when wet and also tell the child they have wee'd. Modern nappies don't.

Mothers were more likely to be at home and would have the time and the inclination (washing, wet floors) to train.

Nowadays we wait until the child is really ready rather than training them to be ready.

I do think things have changed. It's just that it's not really 'wrong' that they have.

Original poster

HackerFucker22 · 31/08/2015 15:18

I've put a pull up on as he looks likely to nap.

Is 4 accidents in 5 hours normal? It's almost as though the change (pants) is making him go more often?

OP posts:

Nanny0gg · 31/08/2015 15:18

I have seen people convinced their child isn't ready because on day one they wet themselves. (This isn't directed at the OP. No idea her views or expectations). I think this and the ease of disposable has led to drifting upwards.

This too.

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