To ask if anyone else had a 'late' toilet trainer? DC1 may be refused nursery entry as he isn't dry.

[HackerFucker22]

DC1 is almost 3 and in my non expert opinion is nowhere near ready to toilet train. We've tried on and off for a few months now and not once have we had a wee where it is supposed to go (we're leaving potty's down and offering toilet ... I have a seat to go over loo and a step). We have big boy pants and we've even tried some bribery. So far so bad.

DC1 is due to start nursery immediately after his 3rd Birthday and the policy is that they only accept dry children I am not sure on the flexibility of this nor the 'legalities' but to say I am stressed is an understatement. I don't want to pass this onto DC though.

I have a meeting with teacher tomorrow and will ask but I'm scared DC1 is going to lose his nursery place. Is this a possibility?

I completely understand why they have the 'must be dry' policy but surely my child isn't the only child to not be dry? Surely they must have some kind of workaround as obviously you cannot force them to toilet train to a schedule?

There are no SN involved. DC just isn't getting this at all bless him. We're on our 3rd pair of pants of the day already.

Any words of wisdom or advice appreciated.

legally they cannot refuse to take him - what our nursery said was that due to numbers they could not have both teachers in the loo changing him as there would then be no-one supervising the other children.

we said we'd send ds in pull ups - no need to change for a wee. if he did a poo they would ring us to go and sort him out. he never poo'd at that time of day so never got a call thankfully.

he was trained within a few months - peer pressure me thinks.

As there are no SEN reasons for your child's refusal to be potty trained, the nursery would be well within its rights to refuse him a place. But so much easier for you if they took over all the hard work.
Increasing numbers of mothers expect this.
In the past we would have been ashamed.

That's not correct Chips, they do not need to change in pairs, staff members can change a child alone.

I'm not really sure why my DD should have been expected to miss out on education until she was six, just because she had the temerity to have a brain haemorrhage at birth.

Wow Goblin, that's so supportive.

Did you miss all the stuff in the OPs post about everything she's done to try and do potty training? If a kid isn't ready they're not ready. She's hardly expecting someone else to take over the hard work!

The school is subject to the laws of the EYFS and has a duty to provide " equality of opportunity and anti discriminatory practice, ensuring that every child is included and supported" page 5
They can't exclude him
Speak to someone at the early years team at your local council

Why on earth would it take 2 people to change a child? I don't understand why this would be a child protection issue when everyone has enhanced crb clearance. I change thousands of nappies a year as part of my job and don't need supervision. Also, those saying the preschool may not have the facilities, they must have something for the children who have toilet accidents.
Op, see what the teacher says but I think the pull up idea is good. How many hours a day will he be there? If only 3 then I am sure he won't need changing anyway.

Goblin where do you get the idea that I expect the nursery to take over and toilet train for me?

I have been trying on and off for months and have spent a fortune on bits and pieces (books, stickers and reward charts, toilet seat, step, colourful pants).

I am just genuinely worried he will lose his place but I cannot force him? He had had 4 accidents today already despite me being with him the whole time and having 2 potty's out.

We have a few more weeks until his start date. He will be doing 3 days (2 full, 1 half day) and I am withing walking distance so I can go and change pull up? He poos quite infrequently and always at night so I'm not worried about that so much.

It's not about expecting someone else to train him, it's about finding a way to work with the nursery so he doesn't miss out on his place.

2 people is good practice these days post several cases. Vanessa George, Mark McLellan and Paul Wilson all abused children and had clean CRBs. They only catch people who have been caught committing offences. Somebody has to be a first offence so it makes sense.

My Eldest wasn't dry at 3, he was 4 before he got it. We used our 15 free hours at a private nursery that was geared up to doing changes.

You need to stop and give the poor baby a break. He's not getting it. I thought my ds was slow but he was trained for poos just after his third birthday, and wees about 3 months after his third birthday. I don't know how vocal your child is, but my ds couldn't talk properly or even tell me things before he turned 3. I'd wait until he's a bit bigger.

Nursery should be helping you train him. Ask them to show him the toilets and to send him for wees with other children so he begins to understand. goblin, your comment is ridiculous.

Send him in pullups, so long as he doesn't poo at nursery he won't need changing.

They cannot refuse him. He doesn't need to have a defined disability. Most children at that age don't have one. It would put me off the nursery though as they sound unwelcoming of children with additional needs.

Achieving continence is a developmental stage, like walking and talking.

Preschools and nurseries cannot refuse admission due to not being continent as it is discriminatory and could be challenged legally.

Until a child can recognise that they have a full bladder and need a wee, and can get themselves to a potty/toilet, pull down their clothing and sit on it, they are not ready to toilet train. Of course as a parent you can facilitate the process by reminding them to try, assisting with moving to the loo, removing clothing etc but you cannot make them recognise a full bladder until they are developmentally ready.

Yes some parents make no effort to facilitate continence and I do not agree with leaving children in pullups until they naturally become dry - that can prolong the learning process as pullups leave them so dry they don't know they've urinated. A child may need to feel wet and uncomfortable to move the process along.

However a child should not be denied their early years education due to a delayed developmental achievement.

(I used to run a continence clinic and often had to liaise with nurseries and preschools to explain why they can't deny a child a place due to a lack of continence).

What bugs me about nurserys taking this attitude is that loads of children will have accidents for the first few weeks they join. My daughter (trained at just before 3 and not in nursery till 3 and half never had one accident till she started nursery when she had two in the first two weeks.

Like walking, talking, learning to count to 10, potty training will happen over a spectrum and there will always be a few three year olds who arent potty trained.

What the hell do they expect you to do?

They can't refuse to accept a child because they are not potty trained.

My Ds4 was three and a half when he trained and had been doing his 15 hrs free pre school since his third bday, I just sent him in a pull up. They said they would call if he had a poo but he never did. When he did train he did it in two days as hos siblings did. They were all younger, infact ds1 trained at 18mths! The others apart from Ds4 were two years but all kids are different, Ds4 took longer to be ready.

Some kids do take longer, other have additional needs which are often not recognised or diagnosed at this young age. It's nothing to do with lazy parenting, thankfully people are getting better educated in this regard and we now have equality laws to safe guard the vulnerable which includes children.

Some rubbish spouted on this thread.

Op go and speak to them, say you will put him in pull ups but he isn't dry yet. They have to work with you, if they won't I would report them and seriously question sending my child to a nursery/school that so blatantly ignores equality legislation.

Goblin the nursery has no right to exclude him and would be breaking the law if they did so. As for 'as there are no SEN..' ; SEN are diagnosed as they come to light based on the development of the child. Problems which might flag SEN include potting Training. My ds didn't get his dyspraxia diagnosis until 6 and I know of many other children whose SEN has not been recognised until much older.

I worked EY for a few years (attached to a school so same premise). Expectation is for child to be dry, accidents happen. But staff can't change children. We had to ring parents to come change the child, or have the child do it themselves. And yes, its awful and annoying for you, but in a class of 38-40 children, with 3 staff members, changing bums doesn't work, its a school setting so there's a different set of expectations and needs than in a nursery.

Don't stress about it. He's a young 3, just expect a few phone calls from staff to either come change him if he's wet or take him home if he's pooed. It won't be a problem, staff expect accidents with small ones. There are constant toilet breaks /reminders. He will be part of a class where the older ones encourage the younger ones, and the younger ones watch the older ones and learn from them. Send him in pull ups, build a rapport with the teacher, stop worrying, he will be fine.

And also, stop with the potty training now - you will be stressing both of you out. If hes not ready, hes not ready. Give it a break of at keast six weeks. You dont want him being scared of the potty. Then try again.

Send him in pull ups.

I really don't see the need for all this drama!

My DD wasn't properly potty trained until she was nearly 4 and I have quite a few friends with children over 4 who are having major problems. I won't pretend to be an expert but my own experience taught me that pushing too hard sends you in the opposite direction. My DD was in pull ups for well over a year while she was getting the hang of it. Also worth looking into "dry like me" liners to catch little accidents in normal pants.

Cocobean nurseries and schools should not be phoning parents and asking them to come and change children - the setting must do this themselves.

A nursery or school cannot insist that a parent comes in to change a child. That would be unlawful.

Wanted to avoid pull ups but they seem to be a compromise for the time being. I hope peer pressure helps.

I am hoping the "child must be dry" policy is more to encourage parents to try as opposed to a real reason to exclude a child. I understand that nurseries don't want to make life harder for themselves and I hope they can offer some insight or advice tomorrow. Thanks... and sorry for the "drama" !

My son was three and I'm pretty sure was not confidently dry at play school - I realise that is different from nursery, but it seems that private places can do what they want. Happy to charge a bomb and set the rules but not actually take children which involves them being children ie wet pants, loo reminders, etc.

I have three children and in my experience if they don't get it within a few days they aren't ready. If it's taking months that is silly, they are clearly not ready.

What I did was potty for two days then loo seat on the toilet. This meant they didn't become overly fine with the potty to the point they were worried about the toilet. A sticker for each wee on a chart with a picture taken from the early learning catalogue at the end as his treat for so many wees. I stopped the chocolate buttons after each one quite quick.

Buy double the pants you think you'll need and not necessarily favourite character ones. Some children can get upset at the thought weeing on their hero.

my ds1 didn't click until the week before his third birthday (sept) and he trained in 4 days. we were sweating too as he was starting play school, play school now has policy that pull ups are fine but parents will be called in for poo's - there's a high level of deprivation in our area and some parents wouldn't bother to potty train tbh if not for play school and pre school policy's.