Is my 8 Year old DD Bad Mannered?

[suchafuss]

She is a very quiet and sensitive and when in company hardly says a word unless she knows the people well. School say that she is lively and engages and has a great vocabulary, but she can tend to be a bit dreamy at times. However when it comes to manners I do have to remind her every time. Friends have said that when she is with them she is well behaved and polite and I never have any concerns with her behaviour.

So this weekend my DN's returned from spending the weekend with her GP's and announced that my step mother had said in front of the rest of the grand kids that 'Mary has no manners'. My daughter is devastated and when I asked her why I have to remind her she said that its because she is shy and that sometimes she forgets.

My husband seems to think that its because she is an oc but I am worried that this has caused her so much upset. FWIW she sees my parents very rarely and now says she doesn't want to see them at all.

Does anyone else have similar experiences and AIBU to think my stepmom should feck off when she sees her about 4 times a year?

Totally agree tobys

If you are shy then nothing can make you talk or speak up once that terrifying paralysis has grabbed you. I was painfully shy as a child and whispered all the time if I spoke as I was so sure that I was going to be wrong in what I said. I have never forgotten that fear. I didn't seem to be noticed not speaking as my brother was aggressive, loud and took my parents attention and my younger sister would have a tantrum at the drop of a hat so I slipped through the gap and was ignored. People spoke for me, often getting things wrong with their assumptions and if I found the injustice hurtful enough to protest that I hadn't actually done xyz it was assumed that I was lying anyway.

Ds3 (10) is terribly shy in certain circumstances & can't say anything. It does happen. People who aren't shy won't get it. They're rude for not understanding Imo - there isn't some magical age at which it 'shpuld' be gone.

I doubt it's anything to do with being an only.

DD is outgoing, intelligent, kind and thoughtful and no one would accuse her of being deliberately rude. However, she is also eight and I still have to remind her to formally greet people and to say please and thank you. It isn't malicious with DD (that's not in her nature) and I suspect alongside other things (having to remind her to go to the toilet and to brush her teeth etc) that her executive functions arent as established as they could be. Her psychologist says that it isn't unusual for eight year olds to still need prompting and the habit of saying please and thank you (p's and q's are said mostly out of habit), just needs longer to establish itself with her.

I have recently reduced my verbal prompting and now tend to not respond until I hear her say them. Your Step Mother loudly calling her ill mannered, is neither helpful or mannered though.

An eight year old should say please and thank you automatically, but many don't because they are not reminded constantly by their parents when they are younger, and then excused because they are "shy".
I stop bringing gifts for children if they refuse to make any acknowledgement, even a 'ta', but simply take the gift with a stony stare, accompanied by 'he's really shy.' No he is not, he is rude.
Parents don't seem capable of removing the gift and saying to their child that they can have it when they say thank you. The same applies when offering food, helping with simple tasks, fetching clothes etc.
I tolerate this behaviour from my friend's grandchild, whom I see infrequently, because I don't want to cause an upset for her, but she is embarrassed too, probably like the step-mother.

I really hate 'ta' [misses point]

I just can't really bring myself to care so much about a couple of words. You can say them, but you may not mean them.

I also know some people I would consider rude who are very strict on 'please' and 'thank you'. Manners and rudeness are very different things, IMO.

As I said before, brownies (ages 7-10) generally take s lot of reminding. Maybe they have perfect manners at home but in a group with their friends they forget. There's always a few that say it and mean it, which is lovely. But all those of you who say your kids have perfect manners, I bet they don't all of the time when they're not with you and have more exciting things to think about

Goblin, how do you know the child is rude rather than shy? Some children are rude, as in perfectly happy to speak to people but don't say please, thank you, etc. Other children are shy, as in say please, thank you etc to people they know well but find it really hard to speak to people they don't know very well. If you see children infrequently then you can't know the difference between the 2 situations.

I'm frequently embarrassed by my dds who are both shy, but I know its not their fault. We're working through it, dd1 was never quite as shy as dd2 is and she's no longer considered rude, but she's a teenager and has worked hard at this for years. Dd2 is an extreme case of shyness and is considered rude by almost everyone, despite her making a massive effort just to stay where she is and not hide from people who speak to her.

Oh for Pete's sake. I wish people would understand that generally speaking children do well when they can. OP has taught her DD manners. What she has inadvertently also done, as have all those other people laying it on that she must be polite, is introduced as heavy weight of expectation that is exceptionally difficult for socially anxious children to manage. All words are not equal. There is what is known as 'communication load' in play as well. Generally speaking, using rote language is easier than free language ( counting and nursery rhymes with a new person easier for a shy child than saying what you did at school today, for example). Answering is easier than initiating. And phrases where the child has been subject to repeated pressure are hardest of all, because of the weight of expectation. Shy and socially anxious children go easily into 'freeze' mode. They aren't snatching stuff and running off rudely, they aren't deliberately rude or badly brought up. The very hardest words for children who have this problem to say are 'hello/goodbye' 'please/thankyou' and 'sorry'. Because for their whole lives these words are the most loaded with social pressure, these are the words they have been reminded to say, told off for not saying, the words that have caused them the thing they most dread - other people's disapproval.
OP, this is all fully researched by speech therapists Alison Wintgens and Maggie Johnson who are experts in communication, social anxiety and selective mutism. They have also shown that adding more pressure 'robustly' is counter productive as it increases the anxiety and tightens the vicious circle. The best thing to do is to tell her you know it is hard for her to say those words and you will not ask her to do so anymore, and you are confident that one day she will be able to. You need to brief others about this approach. Instant effect on DD is relief, anxiety reduces....and it becomes much more likely she will be able to use these words. If she does, a quiet well done is enough...to much fuss raises the anxiety again.
Best of luck. And those people who say your DD is rude simply don't understand anxiety and its impact on communication. That is the long and short of it.

Goblin, hope you read my post and reconsider. How dare you say 'no he's not shy, he's rude'? I tell you what, you may be 'polite' but you are judgemental and lacking in empathy. I expect it's because your parents didn't remind you about it constantly when you were young.

Squashy thank you so much! I will look into the research you mention( I am at Uni so no problem in getting access), tbh was feeling pressured into the 'robust' approach however woth empirical evidence no doubti will feelmore empowered to deal with the disapproval.

The goldmine is the 'selective mutism resource manual' . it doesn't sound like your DD has full selective mutism but she does sound like anxiety impacts her ability to communicate. In the manual you will find a table explaining 'communication load' . good luck.

There's a big difference in my opinion between someone like math for instance, who clearly has made an effort and is doing what is actually in the childs long term interests, and those posters who are just saying shyness can't be helped. And in rl in my experience people are understanding when it's something the parents are trying to overcome. And fwiw the extremely shy kids I've known whose parents are proactive seem to have done a lot better than those with parents that have the attitude people should just suck it up.
I also suspect that if I or anyone else with a dc on the extrovert side had excused them interrupting, talking loudly, or constantly at inappropriate times, talking over others etc because it's just how they are and they can't help it, several of those saying shyness is a valid excuse would be calling the extrovert dc rude and saying the parents should do something.
I'd also like to know how it works when it's a shy childs peers. Are they meant to have the maturity to empathise, whilst the shy dc is not expected to have the maturity to empathise with how their behaviour comes across to peers?

Lurked...I don't know if you are referring to my post but I am by no means suggesting it can't be helped. It just can't be helped in the traditional manner by piling on pressure and reminding (otherwise the child would already be doing it, like their peers are). The method shown to work in younger children is to reduce pressure while expressing confidence in their ability to do well and manage it. In older children the better method is to work with the child to set targets (eg to order a pizza by phone) and work step by step towards that goal. A shrug and 'he can't help it' will never improve the situation, but, and here's the bit people don't seem able to grasp, neither will just being firmer.

The other thing, lurked, is that many extrovert children (though shy ness is not the same as introversion) are less sensitive and better able to handle criticism without being absolutely crushed by it. Part of the definition of shyness is fear of social criticism, so when it happens it can wound very deeply (as it has the op's daughter).

Ime shy children tend not to have a lot of friends because other children don't have the maturity to empathise. And that's OK, they're children. Some children are willing to play with shy children without expecting them to talk very much, which is great. Others try a couple of times to talk to them, then leave them alone because they don't respond. Either approach is fine.

I tend to have some sympathy for all children, no matter what quirks they have, whether that's shyness, loudness, lack of manners, lack of physical confidence, etc. They are all children who are still learning how to cope with things they find difficult, and should be helped to do that in an appropriate manner.

Squashy, is that selective mutism manual available to buy? Or is it something that can only be accessed by professionals?

I think the labelling doesn't help either. "Don't mind her, she's shy" is not exactly empowering for the child is it? It says her own parent doesn't think she has the skills/confidence to do the action required.

My 8 year old is ok confidence wise, but when she was younger we always used to say she was just warming up or just having a moment rather than saying she was shy.

I think the real damage was done by your niece reporting the comments back to your daughter. I don't know how old DN is but I've noticed 8 year olds are prone to reporting back like that. I guess it takes a lot of social nous to judge when this is and isn't appropriate.

Mermaid, its freely available online. By Johnson and Wintgens as mentioned above. 30 quid.

Gosh, I can't believe how hard you're all being on shyness.

I'm really shy in certain situations and I guess you lot would think I'm rude. People older than eight can be paralysed by shyness.

OP it's worth trying to find ways to ease her shyness and I think the earlier the better.

SM was harsh, but I think I'd have prompted a please or thank you, I'd never put a child down like that in front of others. There are other ways she could have dealt with it.

Thanks squashy. Anything I can do to help DD overcome the crippling shyness is worth trying.

There is also a Selective Mutism facebook group (do a search for SMIRA) which has an active support network and lots of free info you can download. It's a closed group so your FB friends wont see any posts you make unless they are also a member.

Thanks violet. Would they mind me joining when DD doesn't officially have selective mutism? She does eventually start talking to people but it takes a long time.

MsMermaid - that is no problem at all, many children have no official diagnosis and SM can vary a lot in severity. If your DD is unable to speak in certain situations despite being able to speak well at home then that is reason enough to find out more. The earlier you understand how to approach it the more likely she is to overcome it quickly :)

I have only read the first page. The Step Grandma was rude, unkind and in my opinion extremely ill mannered.

It is lovely when a charming, polite and kind person says please and thank you. Adult or child.

Some of the rudest, most unkind children and people I have ever met have always said please and thank you. Some of the kindest, nicest children and people don't always say it.

Manners are in the countenance, the tone, the helpfulness, the willingness, the kind word, the nice gesture, the compliance, the sharing - the words count for little without any of that.

Yes, I did bring up mine to say please and thank you. Only yesterday DS asked for something at the table "pass the salad mum" and I responded "pass the salad ...................." and he duly broke into a full beam and said "please mummy". He got in from clubbing with his girl friend about two hours ago.

They made hot drinks and offered me one - that's what I call good manners. They were amiable and polite but I'm not sure his girl friend actually said "hello Mrs Belle, thank you so much for letting me stay today". Do I care, of course I dont', I'm just jolly glad they are home in one piece and I can say to dg, "if you're so cold and wet, why don't you run yourself a nice a warm bath"

I just asked dd if she'd like me to make her egg and bacon. She answered "yes please" very nicely. Phew - she came in very squiffy last night but is still my lovely daughter.

This parenting business is about more than teaching them please and thank you; just as this life business is about more than saying it like a dolly with a string in it's back - the really well mannered mean it too.