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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is my 8 Year old DD Bad Mannered?

129 replies

suchafuss · 30/08/2015 19:34

She is a very quiet and sensitive and when in company hardly says a word unless she knows the people well. School say that she is lively and engages and has a great vocabulary, but she can tend to be a bit dreamy at times. However when it comes to manners I do have to remind her every time. Friends have said that when she is with them she is well behaved and polite and I never have any concerns with her behaviour.

So this weekend my DN's returned from spending the weekend with her GP's and announced that my step mother had said in front of the rest of the grand kids that 'Mary has no manners'. My daughter is devastated and when I asked her why I have to remind her she said that its because she is shy and that sometimes she forgets.

My husband seems to think that its because she is an oc but I am worried that this has caused her so much upset. FWIW she sees my parents very rarely and now says she doesn't want to see them at all.

Does anyone else have similar experiences and AIBU to think my stepmom should feck off when she sees her about 4 times a year?

OP posts:
BlackeyedSusan · 30/08/2015 22:14

I think the step mother was incredibly rude and insensitive to your dd. This is not how to get the best out of children. Complimenting them on their lovely manners gets better results. In the situation where some children use please and thankyou, you praise them and hope the other one takes the hint. If not give them a reminder and then say well done. They soon pick it up, especially if sometimes I become selectively deaf until the correct word is used. They are complimented on their language when used correctly.

VioletBumble · 30/08/2015 22:14

The OP has already said that her DD has to be reminded every time. Which presumably means she is doing all she can in that direction.

Those smugly saying that their children have learnt their manners by 8 - well whoopee for you. All children are not the same. If a child hardly speaks in company there is a reason for that - it makes them anxious which will affect their behaviour. Responding 'appropriately' to adults may have nothing to do with how well a child has been 'trained' and it's rude to assume otherwise.

FuckOffJeffrey · 30/08/2015 22:16

Reading all the replies on this thread makes me worry about my own DD who is almost 6. She is also painfully shy in public and around people she doesn't know very well. I'm guessing in a few months time when she turns 6 she will be labeled as rude and having no manners because she won't say hello back (unless prompted) to people she doesn't know. (Even though she says please and thank you in the house and to people she knows well all the time).

I don't think you are being unreasonable OP. Your step mum should know better than to say your daughter has no manners to other children in the family. It's different discussing shyness / manners with adults but not very kind to say it to the children and it will not do anything to build up your daughters confidence at all. Your step mum knows your daughter is shy as presumably she has know her since she was small.

Obviously the other posters saying how it will be good for her to be pulled up on it have no experience of social anxiety or shyness themselves. Telling a shy person to get over it and just speak to people is the same as telling a depressed person they should just be happy. Yes it is polite to say please and thank you and I do think children should do this, but with shy children they do need prompted because even though they know they should say thank you they are often too afraid or nervous to speak. The fear they feel when they know they are expected to answer questions or speak to someone is real. If you have always been a naturally confident person then you couldn't possibly understand this.

nokidshere · 30/08/2015 22:17

She isn't bad mannered, she is 8. Teach and learn is an ongoing process.

There are plenty of opportunities to Instill good manners so that they become automatic, just keep on doing them and it will work. Calling her out on it in front of other people constantly will only serve to increase the anxiety and shyness.

I know plenty of adults who still need reminding to say please and thank you!!!

xxyummymummy28xx · 30/08/2015 22:24

I think a lot of people, particularly Aunty Mag are being WAY over harsh here. Jeez. She's just a little girl!
I'm sure there are plenty of shy 8 year olds that need to be reminded about their p's n q's OP.
Don't let it worry you. She'll get there.

And don't let your step mum get away with her disgraceful behaviour. My kids wouldn't be spending time with her if that's how they were treated.

mathanxiety · 30/08/2015 22:25

But Violet, not being able for some reason to speak to others is a huge burden for a child and most children who suffer in this way would love to be helped get over it. They tend to be very self conscious and would love to experience a carefree social interaction and the promise of more. Helping them get over it is doing them an immense favour (as long as it is done sensitively). This is a situation where parents should not let their natural inclination to be sensitive to their shy child's discomfort get in the way of seeing what is ultimately in the best interests of the child.

LL0015 · 30/08/2015 22:25

My DD 8 is exactly the same. Had a similar situation with her dads girlfriend resulting in DD being punished. Totally unfair in my book.
She has lovely manners but is painfully shy, I suspect some traits (on her fathers side stupid man) of Aspergers. She never responds to adults questions.
Yet she's praised by teachers and friends parents for being wonderfully kind and well mannered.
I'm a drama queen and will talk to anyone. Not everyone is blessed with my social ease.
Your poor DD

suchafuss · 30/08/2015 22:26

Sorry not at home or with people she knows well. If she visits anywhere will people she knows it is not an issue. She sees this set of grandparents 4 times a year at most.

OP posts:
Dancergirl · 30/08/2015 22:28

I hate this idea that dc 'should' be doing x or y by a certain age. MN is funny sometimes. All children are different and teaching manners is an ongoing process. Some children get it straight away and others need reminding for longer.

The important thing is that manners are being taught. It WILL sink in eventually. Some dc ARE very shy and find it hard to speak, it doesn't just disappear by a certain age.

VioletBumble · 30/08/2015 22:36

math - so how would you help a socially anxious child to 'learn their manners'?

VioletBumble · 30/08/2015 22:37

And why would you presume that being aware of your child's sensitivities would stop you from trying to help them?

abigamarone · 30/08/2015 22:38

I wasn't much younger than that when I used to outright refuse to speak to my grandma. Adored my grandad and would play dominoes with him for hours, she terrified me for no discernible reason. The more fuss was made the more uncomfortable and quiet I became around her. It got better as I got older and folk stopped making a fuss.

Deliberately drawing attention to someone else's behaviour is far far ruder than simply being a bit socially unaware or awkward.

littlejohnnydory · 30/08/2015 22:45

Your dd might come across as a bit rude. My ds comes across as rude. he is also 8, has Asperger's and often forgets please and thank you but would be mortified to be criticised in public, it would really damage his fragile self esteem.

If your dd was rude, your stepmother was ruder. She was also horrible and should definitely know better at her age.

AliMonkey · 30/08/2015 22:57

I really worry if DS ever meets any of you. He has selective mutism - his anxiety is so bad that in most situations in earshot of anyone except certain people (me, DH, DD, DM, his godmother and a small number of school friends) he is physically unable to speak. He can occasionally manage a whisper that only we can hear. He is not rude. At home he is generally well mannered, particularly with pleases and thank yous. He would love to be able to speak to you but just can't. Of course we are working with him to help him but quite frankly getting him to speak to his teacher at school is higher up the priority list them says thank you to a stranger.

Yes, selective mutism is at the extreme end of the shyness scale, but the same applies to those more "normally" shy. Shyness is a reason to be what many of you are calling rude. If you can't get the words out them no amount of being told you have to will help.

BarbarianMum · 30/08/2015 22:58

Violet I bribe incentivise ds2 (age 7) to greet 1 school friend each morning (he finds greetings esp difficult). If he can say something like "Hi Mike, how are you" he gets 10 min added on to his screen time. If he needs to tell his teacher something at the start of school, I go up to her with him. If he wants sweets from the shop he has to go up to the counter to pay (and remember to say please and thank you).

It's not easy but it's not rocket science either. And each time you do it, it gets a teeny tiny bit easier. As a poster up thread said, its no fun being so self conscious.

VioletBumble · 30/08/2015 23:13

BarbarianMum - yes, as I'm sure you're aware, if a child is that anxious then it takes a prolonged, planned, stepped approach to tackle it so that they can even begin to function in a socially confident and 'acceptable' way.

I've been doing that for years, and whilst my DD has come on a lot, her anxiety is such that she is still nowhere near able to go into a shop, ask for something and say thank you in an audible voice. At home, she is (usually!) extremely polite to DH and me and a complete joy. But if you saw her in public and were an insensitive, ignorant arse you'd think we were the worst parents in the world who couldn't be bothered to teach her any manners.

Obviously I don't know the OP or her DD but it doesn't sound like the step-mum has tackled this sensitively or well.

ClarkeyCat · 30/08/2015 23:29

My husband seems to think that its because she is an oc

Does oc here mean only child? If so, what has that got to do with manners?

mathanxiety · 30/08/2015 23:36

A lot of parents will cut a shy child plenty of slack and put off trying to help them, when they are sensitive to the child's discomfort. I honestly think this is misguided, and teaching plus rehearsing will go a long way towards helping a shy and self conscious child enjoy life more.

It's important to acknowledge the starting point and to emphasise that there is nothing wrong with being shy and that everybody feels like this to some extent, some more, some less. A person who is very self conscious can (ironically) sometimes lose track of the fact that there are other people in the equation however, so teaching involves talking about why other people are talking to the child, and about their expectations in terms of response, while at the same time acknowledging that response is difficult.

My DD1 couldn't see the point of chit chat but didn't realise it is how more interesting conversations get off the ground. She was impatient with it, thought people were just being stupid, and didn't realise that you don't launch straight into a conversation about things you are interested in without exchanging verbal gestures of friendliness. She also didn't understand the importance of sending signals of friendliness or willingness to chat. This is not a child who was autistic; she just had a combination of shyness and seriousness.

In a way, I always felt this awkwardness is more noteworthy in a girl than it might have been in DS -- many people expect girls to be more social than many of them are. But all the same, I did not think I was doing DD1 any favours by having her unwittingly carry on a crusade against preconceived gender expectations, though I guarded against turning her into Little Miss Conviviality. We talked about her reluctance to speak or acknowledge greetings and her feelings about this, as well as whether she wanted to learn to do things differently.

We rehearsed a few stock phrases in a playful manner as well as tones of voice that she could use convincingly in response to 'How is school going?' or 'How's life, Tootsie?' or 'Would you like another slice, dear?' -- the sort of questions that normally left her resembling the verbal equivalent of a beached whale. She didn't understand that a three page essay was not needed in response to the first two questions or that a simple and audible 'yes please' or 'no thank you' with appropriate facial expression would do fine for the third. Optional additions such as 'It was delicious but I am full' were also rehearsed.

We also did a little role play where DD1 was the person initiating a conversation and I was DD1 giving her the brushoff. I asked her how she felt when I seemed to ignore her. Did she want to keep on talking to me? Did she feel like calling out 'Hi!' when she saw me again if I had stared hard at the ground when she did it the first time?

Because she had told me that she preferred to feel that she was invisible and unnoticed and to just listen to other people, and seemed to dislike the idea of a spotlight on her, I encouraged her to see interactions as practices, not earth shattering debuts from her preferred state of being a chrysalis into the persona of a social butterfly. So if we were going to visit someone or if a visitor was expected, I would say 'Great, you can practice on them'. She kept on 'practicing' until having a pat response and audible conversational voice became second nature to her.

Fatmomma99 · 30/08/2015 23:50

I think this has a lot to do about how one views the child...

I have a good friend who is SO proud of her DD's manners. And they are BEAUTIFUL when she's talking to her mum or dad: It's pleases and thank yous all the way. She never says them to us if her parents are out of earshot, but her mum continues to believe her child has amazing manners.

We also have a lovely, lovely friend who is estranged from his twin daughters, who he misses every day. His daughters are very international, and speak several languages fluently, but they have American accents. I find them very whiney. I also find his twin daughters VERY lazy and it irks me when they come to stay (which, for logistical reasons they do for quite long periods irregularly). I do get that Dad absolutely adores his daughters, and is delighted to be spending time with them. But find it hard when I witness the following conversation:

DD1: Daddy...... Hungry.

Dad: Are you hungry my sweet? What are you hungry for?

DD1: Soss

Dad: You want soucisse? (bustles off into kitchen to provide her with salami)

These same children DO NOT FLUSH THE TOILET AFTER USE. I find it disgusting. And I think 'these lazy, spoilt, entitled kids can't even be bothered to flush away their own swerege!'
My DD sometimes doesn't flush either. I find it CUTE! It's so sweet... Her little wee, her scrunged up tissue... I find it delightful!
I'm TOTALLY double standards, without even meaning to be.

So (to get back to the thread) I think it's actually about how you feel about the child!

bessarabiantiger · 30/08/2015 23:57

I may have skimmed here OP, but for me? Everyone calling your DC... anything negarive really, can piss right off. Yes you, shut up and return when said kid is 17 and stop holding OP up to your mirror. It costs nothing to belt up, put your purse away.

OP, there's a million reason why your DC did what they did. I wouldn't dare guess, because putting half-baked theories to you is essentially a person projecting their own experience or opinion onto your kid.

My kids have acceptable manners. Sometimes they just won't greet someone. I work on the assumption that as they HAVE Been taught social graces that this person may be an asshat and I should listen to them.

MsMermaid · 31/08/2015 00:53

Working on helping a shy child get over it can take a really long time though, it's not a quick process. What may look to outsiders to be "cutting a shy child a lot of slack" may actually be a parent trying to help their child privately and trying to prevent other people from undoing all the work they've done behind the scenes, which is what can happen when a shy child is told off for being shy.

Dd2 is extremely shy. She's 5, so most people will sort of accept that she's shy rather than rude, but she's just about at the top end of the age that it'll be tolerated (especially because she's tall so looks older than she is). We're working on helping her through it, but we've been working on it for about 3 years now. When she turned 2 she would literally only speak to 5 people (me, dp, dd1, our cm, and my mum), although she was very articulate with those 5 people. By the time she started nursery at 3, she had widened that circle of "trusted" people to include the cm's family, the children who went to the cm and their parents, but she would not talk to anyone at nursery, not even her friends. It took her more than a term before she spoke to any of the other children, and almost a year before she started speaking to the adults there. Starting school was easier, she was 4, she'd "practised" a lot at home about how she could speak to people at school, but she only spoke to her 3 nursery friends for the first 3 weeks, then slowly she started talking to her teacher and by half term she was able to talk to both the teacher and ta about her work. This is HUGE progress, but it's taken 3 years of constant encouragement, discussion and "training" to get to this point, and she still can't even contemplate speaking to a stranger, let alone speak enough to say please and thank you.

We're currently spending a lot of time discussing dd's fears, modelling positive thoughts rather than negative ones, planning/practising interactions with other people, and rewarding her when she has a positive interaction. It's small steps though, so our rewards atm are stickers every time she smiles at an adult who speaks to her rather than scowling at them, with a packet of sweets every time she gets to 10 stickers. Once she has mastered smiling at people then we'll move on to responding verbally (with rehearsed phrases), then we'll see what we need to do next.

ReginaBlitz · 31/08/2015 01:04

For all those saying the child Is rude, and shy or not she should have manners that has nothing to do with it. My daughter has selective mutism so sometimes she may not say Thank you and she isn't rude, far from it. Some kids are just very shy and find it hard to talk to people it's a bit harsh saying an 8 ur old has no manners.

Goshthatsspicy · 31/08/2015 03:41

One of my daughter's friends (6) has impeccable manners.
Unfortunately she can be quite cruel to her peer group.

I'd rather have a shy/silent guest.
Adults should be able to spot shyness, and not be so put out.
I'm surprised at the zealous teaching of manners mentioned here. Mainly as most adults l deal with, don't seem to have any themselves! Grin

Doraydiego · 31/08/2015 04:31

fatmomma99 are you on drugs? Your post is.. weird.

tobysmum77 · 31/08/2015 07:23

And Doray the same could be said for your post Hmm

Back to the point it just amazes me how many people have trained their children perfectly by the age of 8. Shite 18 months to whip dd into shape and she isn't even shy ...... Methinks a lot of people think their kids are far more perfect than they are.