not to know if "brown sugar" is offensive.

[Charis1]

I am taking some gifts from work colleagues to a friend in hospital tomorrow. We had a collection, and one person bought the gifts from us all. We have some nice toiletries and things, but are in a toiletry bag with a picture of a teddy on it and the caption "brown sugar". I thought that term sometimes used in a racist context, so am reluctant to hand this over. but not sure if I am being paranoid and overly politically correct.

Please help!

I'm not debating that white people have no right.

But black people - genuinely, why can't they own a golly? Or use the n word? It is their history to decide what to do with.

Seneca, what is the thought on music like Kanye West's where you live?

Feels a bit like white privilege to criticise black people for appropriation

slithy I don't have an opinion really on re-appropriation, it's not my decision iyswim, I know people that fall onto both sides and both make sense.

the n word debate is a interesting one.

Me and DP often quote django unchained note to self never do this as a couple on the milk isle of Tesco again we laugh, anyone who has seen the film will know the n word is used A LOT. I'm white, it's a film, people laugh.

Now if I just walked up to a person of African or carribean heritage and called them the n-word aggressively, yeah no bonus points for figuring out that's offensive and in that scenario it wouldn't matter if I was black or white, its used as a insult and will cause offence.

Black to black can use the n-word as a general nickname, but I think they do this to belittle the word once used to oppress their race. A sort of taking hold of it and owning it rather than letting it rule them

I don't fully get it, if I'm honest.

This song popped up from my memory

HOT CHOCOLATE LYRICS
"Brother Louie"

She was black as the night
Louie was whiter than white
Danger, danger when you taste brown sugar
Louie fell in love over night
Hey man, what's wrong with that?
Nothing bad, it was good
Louie had the best girl he could
When she took him home to meet her mama and papa
Louie knew just where he stood

Louie Louie Louie, Louie Louie Louie
Louie Louie Louie, Louie you're gonna cry

All right, what's all this about?
I love her, man
Oh yeah, man, let me tell you
I don't want no honky in my family, you dig?
No honky in my family

See what I mean
Louie really caused a scene
He did, I tell you
Ain't no diff'rence 'tween black or white
Brothers, you know what I mean

Louie Louie Louie, Louie Louie Louie
Louie Louie Louie, Louie you're gonna cry

There he stood in the night
Knowing what's wrong from what's right
He took her home to his mama and papa
Louie had a terrible fright

What's goin' on?
Well, we're in love
Now listen, let me tell you
I don't want no spook in my family
Get it, no spook in my family

See what I mean
Louie really caused a scene
He did, I tell you
Ain't no diff'rence 'tween black or white
Brothers, you know what I mean

Louie Louie Louie...

You may have something there in your last paragraph ginger..

I'm a feminist and I live in a part of the world where cunt is so offensive it's called the C-word and where it is only used as a slur against women. Some feminists are re-appropriating it. I am not one of them.

I understand re-appropriation (I think), and I don't think I have criticized anyone for doing it or approving of it, but I can certainly have an opinion on whether, in particular circumstances, it has a positive effect on social change for the good.

Having said that, I think we do have to defer to the people in an oppressed class on issues of re-appropriation and be sensitive to whether a word or thing has been fully appropriated, meaning that members of the oppressor class can use it with impunity. I also think it's valid to discuss the fact that many in the oppressed class may resist reclamation and in many instances find it offensive.

Most of the African Americans I know are not Kanye West fans, btw, but they are mostly my age.

I'm not sure what point Exmotherinlaw is making re Brother Louie. Erroll Brown was narrating a story using language and attitudes which unfortunately still existed ar the time he wrote the song. I'm pretty certain he would have found them offensive. I doubt he was trying to re-appropriate words like brown sugar and honky.

I mentioned the band Carolina Chocolate Drops. They are trying to re-appropriate traditional black minstrel ( and no that doesn't mean that late and unlamented BBC show ) and folk music. Seneca mentioned the intersections between Scottish Gaelic culture and African American culture and their music very definitely shares roots with Scottish traditional music. Their name is a reference to a band from the 30s called The Tennessee Chocolate Drops.

Their 2010 album was called Genuine Negro Jig and won the Grammy Award for Best Traditional Folk Album and was number 9 in Roots magazine's top 10 albums of 2010. And very good it is too.

They are serious about what they do. They are excellent musicians and I think we definitely do have to defer to their views on re-appropriation.

I just came across this and haven't had a chance to read it, but thought it might be interesting.

What Race Sounds Like: Perceiving American Music Through the Carolina Chocolate Drops

Thank you. That does look interesting.

Sorry for being vague. I was just giving another instance of it being used in a song as a reference to sex and colour.

But the storyline of the song you gave was far different to the one the Rolling Stones wrote, TheEx - The RS song is dreadful, racist, sexist, appalling stuff - whereas the Louie song, that just showcases the difficulties of a black person and a white person falling in love and how neither side deals with it well because of racism.

Sorry Exmil my post sounded snarky. It's another example of context. To me it's clear why Erroll Brown used those expressions and it would be a shame to connect him with the Stones' salacious and unsubtle use of "brown sugar".

I did vaguely wonder if, given the reference to slavery and Gold Coast in the Stones' song, one could interpret it in a purely narrative,historical context but the argument is a bit weak.

Ginger have you taken a survey of every BME person to ascertain your claim that very few people find them offensive?

well out of the I'd say 40 I know well and have had the conversation with at a family event, not one said yes they are deeply offensive toys, but you are right I haven't asked every black person.

I know a strict Muslims who took offence to a pig in a Fisher price farm set, and I'm betting not all take offence at a pig in a farm yard toy.

But your right, best not to make generalisations.

so I'll correct, the majority of black people I know personally and have conversed with on the subject, don't find them offensive.

We can see from this thread that ( in UK 2015! ) there are people who don't know what BME means

I've never seen it used outside this thread. It strikes me as something that is probably popular in a particular context which means that some posters have been exposed to its use and thus think it's the norm everywhere. My initial assumption was civil service equality training or similar. I've genuinely never seen BME used anywhere, or heard the phrase, as far as I can remember.

The RS song is dreadful, racist, sexist, appalling stuff

I think I'm too young for this - I've never heard the song and don't know enough about the context of the song coming out and the general reputation of the RS. Am I being stupid if I ask why the RS song can be deemed racist/sexist/appalling as opposed to social/historical commentary?

I did vaguely wonder if, given the reference to slavery and Gold Coast in the Stones' song, one could interpret it in a purely narrative,historical context but the argument is a bit weak.

Cross-posted. Why is the argument weak?

Did you read the lyrics, Smilla? It's context, isn't it. It doesn't read as "historical narrative", it reads as "this is how I feel about this".
The "Louie" song doesn't read in the same way at all - the story is clear, the language usage is clearly to show the problems.

It's a bit like this bit in the Summertime song:
...When the weather's fine
You got women, you got women on your mind
Have a drink, have a drive
Go out and see what you can find

If her daddy's rich take her out for a meal
If her daddy's poor just do what you feel...

It's basically saying that you don't need to treat a woman with respect if her father has no money, you can just screw her if you want.

You can argue it if you like, but it won't change the way I feel about the way the songs have been written.

I'll try to explain. I'm not a Stones' fan and I'm not particularly knowledgeable about their history.

The little I do know about them is that they were not known for making political statements in the way say Lennon was (I'm not for the moment commenting on the fatuousness of the line "imagine no possessions it's easy if you try" from a man who owned 2 apartments in New York, one of which was solely to store possession and will allow him a pass for sake of argument. To be fair to Lennon he did speak out on other things)The only instances of anything political I can think of for the Stones were the "break a butterfly on a wheel" incident where William Rees-Mogg wrote a Times'editorial about how ridiculous a drugs charge against Jagger was and a half-hearted refusal once to tour in South Africa , but which may have had more to do with personal inconvenience than principles.

The Stones had a reputation of being sexually predatory (they weren't alone in that in the 60s and 70s)

The best one can say of The Stones along with bands such as Led Zeppelin, Cream, Humble Pie is that in appropriating (some would say stealing) Black American blues and selling it back to the US as part of the British Blues invasion they may have forced a white American audience to reevaluate Black musical heritage.

The most persuasive argument for me against the Stones' Brown Sugar being social commentary is the sheer lasciviousness of its performance.

Agreed Thumbwitches There is no comparison between Brother Louie and Brown Sugar.

The Mungo Jerry song was and is just vile. And I always thought "in your dreams mate" given how repulsive their singer was.

"Well, it's not offensive here in the US anymore than referring to a black guy as dark chocolate.

Absolute nonsense. It would not be acceptable to use these words in the US."

Context. Are you saying it in a demeaning or flirty way?

I've had black men as me if I liked dark chocolate. I've told black men I like dark chocolate. No one has ever taken offense. It's no worse than that stupid coffee pick up line, it's dorky, but not offensive.

Now, if I had leered at a man saying "Mmm.. Gimme some of that dark chocolate" that would be clearly wrong because I am seeing him as an object and only his skin color.

Just like the word sweet heart. Context of flirting it's fine, context of being patronizing it's not.

Language is not a linear thing. Hope that helps.

"Black to black can use the n-word as a general nickname, but I think they do this to belittle the word once used to oppress their race. A sort of taking hold of it and owning it rather than letting it rule them

I don't fully get it, if I'm honest."

It's just a very simple young men giving each other shit. A black person can't just go up and call another black person n**r and have it be perfectly ok.

It's like when you call your girl friends bitches if you're fooling around. You call your friend "Hey bitch, sup?", probably means you're being playful and you two are close enough to insult each other without taking it personally. But you wouldn't go up to someone you don't know and call them a bitch, and it's certainly insulting to use it on someone as a derogative term.

The Stones' song is a sexual fantasy about using a black slave girl (possibly multiple rape, depending on time-frames.) The Hot Chocolate one's about intolerance faced by a mixed-race couple. I know 'Brown Sugar' isn't a critique because the girl herself has no presence in it, and nobody's upset except the lady of the house - who wishes they'd keep the noise down! Oh, and he respects the victim so much, he says her mother must have been a fairground prostitute*.

I've been belting out completely wrong lyrics to that for 45 years

• The term “Tent Show Queen” refers to an African American woman during times of slavery, who would perform different entertainment acts for crowds. Tent Show Queens were regarded as one step above a slave. They subjected themselves to prostitution, when their act did not earn them enough money. “And all her boyfriends were sweet sixteen” shows the woman must entertain a younger, inquisitive clientele.

yes well, I didn't think strangers would do it to one another, I did mean it as "those who know one another" like dp and his brothers do to one another, and dp's close friends.

But then how does this explain rappers who use it, they are saying it to a broad audience and not a personal friend, or are they calling themselves a n-word?

I think us white folk are better of just never using it and leaving them to it personally haha

Thanks for the replies re. the Stones. I wasn't comparing Brother Louie and Brown Sugar at all, for the record - I don't know why anyone would think I was. The two being vastly different in tone doesn't necessitate only one of them potentially being social commentary.