About this GP

[slightlyconfused85]

Now before I start I generally think Gps are amazing people, I'm not dissing the profession. Today, however, I booked an appointment to get the contraceptive pill after the birth of my 2nd child. I was given an appointment with a locum who explained my options to me, then said he didn't prescribe contraception for ethical reasons. I then had to wait 45 minutes for another gp to be able to fit me in to prescribe this for me. Aibu to think that if the gp surgery is going to have locums that won't do this then they could have let me know on the phone when I booked? I know the receptionist didn't know what I wanted but they could say if it's an appointment to discuss contraception then say and we will find a different GP. Had loads of time wasted today and feeling (probably irrationally) irritable about it!

Ten - yes in the context of infringingother peoples human rights
well apart from anything else, that's exactly what you're arguing for!

everstrong do I really need to repeat myself again? Ok.

Because they are acting in a professional NOT a personal capacity.

Because they are a service provider paid by their employer to provide a service.

Because it's unfair to pick and choose aspects of your job that you agree with.

Because the universe doesn't revolve around you and your personal beliefs.

And, I feel this bears saying again: because they are acting in a professional capacity, which they are paid to do, not a personal capacity.

You want to spout off about your beliefs? Fine. Go down the pub after work.

And spanish: wut? Yes, I'm arguing for the human rights of the patient who is entitled to medical treatment in a professional capacity. I do not believe it infringes a GPs human rights to do things they disagree with when those tasks are an expected part of their job duties.

Ten No! You really really do not need to keep repeating yourself. You might want to do a bit of research to understand why your opinion is opposed to current legislation, but unfortunately you have already said you have no interest in doing so, so I imagine your one dimensional views are here to stay. But please, don't feel obliged to keep repeating them, you do seem to be finding it as tiresome to type as I find it to read. its like a very loooooooong DM editorial

Er, WTAF? First off, I'm answering questions that people of a like mind to you keep asking. Given that you yourself admitted you haven't RTFT, and that others seem to need reminding why I feel the way I do (since, you know, I repeat they keep asking), my response to a question is to (CRAZY, I know) answer it. Unless you're asking hypothetically, or just to score a point?

Several times I've made valid points only to have you not answer them back (except to ask me about stuff I've already said). So I think you're just pissy that you've run out of comebacks.

My opinion is opposed to current legislation because society is still pretty sexist and yet, ironically, increasingly liberal. Not that there's anything wrong with liberal viewpoints, I just happen to disagree with this one.

I find your view pretty one dimensional, but I don't feel the need to insult you. That's because we're on a forum know for debating. Do you win the internet, Spanish? Have a .

I think you would expect a person to be employed in a capacity which does not run counter to their beliefs. I think they should morally find another job.

I think that the approach for objecting to being involved in abortion is just illogical. If you approach a GP who objects to abortion then they refuse to refer you (and sign a form) but instead refer you to someone else who will. So in effect they are still referring you for an abortion, the only difference being whether they sign their name or not.

I am shocked that "Christian GP surgeries" exist and are able to avoid providing a full range service. I'd be mightly pissed off to find my local GP surgery was like that. The whole point of GP surgeries is to provide a full range of primary care locally.

I think secret shoppers are very much needed for GPs. The BMA will never ever allow that to happen though.

Pico, they must operate within the law, which protects them from having to be an instigator of the process that leads to abortion (although, interestingly, the midwives who refused to assign staff to the care of women undergoing such treatment failed in their attempt to conscientiously object), but does not absolve them of a duty of care. Therfore, they must refer them to another doctor who can fulfil their legal right for referral.

To give an example, a GP who refuses to sign a prescription, but prints it and takes it to another doctor to sign, is still participating by writing the prescription. Whereas, a doctor who refuses to prescribe but then says to another doctor "I don't participate in x, could you see this patient please.' is not making a prescribing decision. They are merely directing a patient to a colleague as required by the GMC.

Ten no I haven't won the internet.
What questions haven't I answered? I didn't realise I'd missed any.

If you google 'Christian GP practice/surgery" you might be very surprised. They are far more common than people realise and IMP not very overt about how they evangelise and use their faith in the consultation.

Not questions, as such, I said "points" - so I've made arguments but I don't really feel you've made any in return. I could be wrong, if I have the energy I'll re-read the thread tomorrow.

But it's clear we both have very strong feelings on this (which we're both entitled to), so I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree! Sadly no-one in government is going to be asking my opinion on this anytime soon, so my influence in this area is nil, so there's nothing to fear from my dangerously one-dimensional viewpoints

You've actually got my curiousity up and I'll look out for the reasons that doctors are allowed to have personal ethics in their professional work. I kind of fear I won't find anything though, as most government / professional bodies are not really in the habit of justifying their decisions to us plebs on the street

Ten I had a little look last night and it wasn't easy!
I found a bit about the GMC recommendations in 2013 but not why they weren't taken up. I imagine it might be something to do with Europe and human rights as you mentioned earlier. And maybe some lobbying from some medics?

For what it's worth I don't entirely disagree with you! I just imagine it's a very complicated issue.

I think that no human being should be forced to end the life of another human being.

No one is being forced into being a doctor or a nurse. Don't like the job? Get a different one.

It's a tiny proportion of the work though. Especially in nursing, unless you work in gynaecology, theatres or maternity, you're not going to come across it.

Why should people not be allowed to avail themselves of their legal right to abstain?

It's a tiny proportion of the work though.

Contraception and abortion is a tiny part of the GP's job? Seriously?

Why should people not be allowed to avail themselves of their legal right to abstain?

Because they're taking 100% of the salary for doing 80% of the job.

OK. Population of the UK in 2013 was 64.1 million <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pop-estimate/population-estimates-for-uk--england-and-wales--scotland-and-northern-ireland/2013/stb---mid-2013-uk-population-estimates.html&ved=0CD0QFjADahUKEwiKgfuPvqTHAhUhq9sKHdaKAHk&usg=AFQjCNFDCJZFBPp-iIoAfo85y5LOseLQvw&sig2=se2TLgyXKLZ9XYpEThNTSQ" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ONS

Number abortions 2013: 185,331 <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/319460/Abortion_Statistics__England_and_Wales_2013.pdf&ved=0CBwQFjAAahUKEwjatpb_vqTHAhVFgdsKHd1JARk&usg=AFQjCNEQzXXQ_HY6Bt-STtf8BBJRewborw&sig2=M719dJ7yXonNoE8IW3nr8g" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">[[//www.gov.uk]]

185,331/64,100,000×100= 0.29% of the population had an abortion (assuming no women had more than one abortion in one year)

Average GP list 2013: 6911 GP Online

6911x0.29%=20 women per GP practice per year have an abortion, on average.

Are you seriously suggesting that a doctor should not take the GP route because they may see 20 women who require an abortion?

Put another way, there are 340,000,000 GP consultations each year <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=bma.org.uk/-/media/files/pdfs/news%2520views%2520analysis/press%2520briefings/pressbriefinggeneralpracticeintheuk_july2014_v2.pdf&ved=0CCcQFjADahUKEwigtsnvwKTHAhXjmdsKHWqdC9Y&usg=AFQjCNFFqzuWb6TKIcUTgcj3-ssPx-BWZQ&sig2=rQ6691r0-beKxhSvHy6_dA" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">BMA

185,331/340,000,000×100=0.05%

A GP might see 5 in every 1000 appointments that concern abortion.

I haven't addressed contraception. But that is an add on service and it is the practice that receives the additional funding, not the individual GP.

I haven't addressed contraception.

Which is rather more common than abortion, I think you'll find.

But that is an add on service

Surgeries that don't offer it should put up a sign saying so, so that patients who might dare to need it can find a GP who's willing to do the job they're paid for.

"can find a GP who's willing to do the job they're paid for."

But the practice is only paid if they do provide it, so unwilling practices are still doing the job they're paid for.

I've been a GP for 20 years and I think this is outrageous. I would never allow my personal beliefs to have a negative effect on a patient.

I remember seeing a woman who was 20 weeks pregnant and wanted a termination as her boyfriend had left her and she knew she couldn't cope with a baby on her own. I listened to her, sympathised with her, arranged a gynae appointment for her, and never once expressed any personal opinions on her situation. I don't disagree with terminations, but when I saw her I had just had my 4th failed IVF, so the whole experience was very distressing for me. But my feelings weren't the issue. She was the patient, and I didn't have any right to let my feelings encroach on her life.

And people can argue that declining to give contraception etc is not judging, but I don't see how it is anything other than judging. Essentially the GP is saying "I disapprove so strongly of your life choices that I cannot bring myself to personally facilitate them, so I will pass that responsibility on to someone else". If that's not judging, I don't know what is!

Bloody hell, you lot have made me think. Actually my own GP surgery is full of practising Christians, although only one of them was overtly so in consultations, being a published Baptist who also did radio on sexual abstention. For some reason, I've never really worked out that it is, pretty much, a Christian practice, although there's nothing to say so. Farkin' hell.

In fact it's a miracle the partners and non-partners in my GP surgery haven't killed one another, since they represent pretty much every shade of Protestant belief.

Of course it is judging, Jollyphonics. We go to GPs for advice .

Jollyphonics You sound like an awesome GP.

Lougle - I know they are following the law, but it is a pretty illogical process.

A quick Google for Christian GP surgeries does show that there are lots out there. I am so surprised.

Wow this is a really interesting thread!

I am a female GP and am fascinated by the views here. I happily prescribe contraception but would definitely not say this is a big proportion of my work, possibly a couple of patients a day out of 30 or so.

As for referrals for termination, I see possibly one every 2-3 months. I also do not sign the forms for termination but will write the referral letter/give the patient the phone number to book the appointment and have even called up to book the appointment myself when the patient has complained of having no credit on their phone/no access to any phone etc. I do this hoping that they will get some counselling prior to making the final decision which will allow them to make an informed choice. I have never carried out the procedure myself so don't feel like I can give them the full picture of what to expect.

So many ladies I refer seem unsure of their decision and I don't want to sway them either way without them getting full information. I am certainly not comfortable about signing the form (www.bpas.org/media/1197/hsa1-form.pdf) so choose to let the doctors at the actual termination clinic do this (after they have counselled the patient).