To protest at the words "Jewish" and "Israeli" being used interchangeabley.

[Jewishnotisraeli]

They are not the same thing at all.

Most Jews are not Isreali

Many Isrealis are not Jewish.

20-25% of Israelis, including the Israeli army are Muslim, ( varies year to year)

Some Jews are Arabs. Some Arabs are Jewish.

Some Palestinians on the West bank are Jewish.

There are no known Jewish Palestinians in the Gaza strip as Hamas has succeeded where Hitler failed, in wiping out it's own indigenous Jewish population. This is the ONLY reason why there are no Jews left in this population.

Israel has done terrible things. Hamas has done terrible things.

Please don't classify things done by Israel as done by Jews, a quarter of them are not Jews. please don't classify things done by Hamas as done to Jews, many of their atrocities are inflicted on Muslims.

To say Jews and Israelis are the same is like saying English people and Anglicans are the same, many people are English and Anglican, many people are English but not Anglican, and many Anglicans are not English.

And also, some Palestinians, and some Israelis are Christians.

People using comparisons to halocaust concentration camps and ridiculous statements like zionism is like isis are damaging to the Palestinian cause and people who support it.
As damaging as linking isreali and jew in the way op describes and shutting down debate with cries of anti semitism.
You just can't have a sensible measured debate with these assertions flying around.

It's not just a religion. It's an ethnocultural group as well - the Jewish people. That's why it's analogous to Turks or Kurds or Germans.

Hitler didn't define Judaism by religion. You couldn't convert to save your life. You could be a practicing Christian but if you were ethnically a Jew, then you were screwed.

Completely agree Hampsterdam.

*No Israelis and Jews are not the same. But Israel is the Jewish homeland.

You can be Israeli and non-Jewish (obviously). You can be Jewish and not Israeli (obviously).

You can be a German national and not ethnically German. You can be an ethnic German and not a German national*

Yes but this still contradicts the reasoning that the Jews should have Israel because they are Jewish. Whether or not you are German through ethnicity or through Germany being your country of birth religion has nothing to do with it but stating that Jew's should have Israel because Turkish people have Turkey etc brings a religious context to your argument wherase in Germany, Turkey or wherever religion is not the basis on whether or not a place is your homeland, for this reason the two are incomparable,

homehelp do you think what's happening in Gaza is okay, because it isn't as bad as the holocaust? I'm not likening the two, but don't minimise the situation in Gaza.

shak you are completely contradicting the OP.

HoneyBadger: why distinguish a religious justification from other justifications for a homeland? Was the process of creating the Australian state less irrational and brutal for not being mainly driven by religion? Ditto, frankly, a substantial fraction of all modern states? Surely the only "legitimate" claim to a piece of land is "my ancestors lived there"? And that is often going to be a contested claim by people saying "mine lived there before yours did". All states are inherently artificial constructs, and the vast majority have bloodshed and injustice at their core, whether theocracies or secular democracies. The conclusion I draw from that, is that it is important and worthwhile drawing some finer distinctions: how much blood, how much injustice, how impervious to counter-claims and reasons. Otherwise we end up saying "a plague on all your houses" and thinking that a vicar is as evil as an ISIS cleric. And that, to me, is a reductio ad absurdum.

Patapouf: if you can provide a quote from what I wrote that demonstrably minimises the situation in Gaza, I'd be very interested.

I objected to someone claiming that Gaza was "essentially ... the largest concentration camp in the world".

Are you saying that the very fact of my objecting is "minimising the situation"? If not, then what?

homehelpme referring back to your post regarding less outrage at the deaths of Syrian children - Israel is a close ally of the west; Syria is not and unlike Israel, Syria receives no western aid and have had many abassadors expelled.
The fact the UK also supply's arms to Israel (which will/ has contributed to children being blown up) makes the whole thing seem even more grubbier.

Handsup = Saudi Arabia is a close ally of the UK. It has been bombing civilian areas in Yemen for months, with huge civilian casualties, without anyone being especially bothered. This supports Homehelpme's theory.

The UK's arms supply to Israel is pretty irrelevant. There was a time when it was significant, but after we imposed an embargo, the Israelis set up their own weapons industry, which is now a world leader.

As for Western aid to the Israelis, it's only the US that provides it, and most of it is credit to buy US goods.

Yes I'm aware Saudi are our allies and like the Israeli government I believe the monarch are scumbags too (and I get the opportunity to say that without being labelled Islamophobic unlike Israel where I'll be labelled anti Semitic)

The UK arms supply maybe irrelevant to you but I remain disgusted with the fact we continue to arm.

patapouf

It doesn't contradict the OP in the slightest, completely supports it. In what way does it contradict it?

I don't think every ethnic German is a German national. And I don't think every German national is an ethnic German.

It's the same as Israeli and Jew which is what the OP said.

Don't forget that you be of Jewish origin without practicing Judaism.

And the fact that Israel is the Jewish national homeland doesn't mean that every Jew must support it or rush there. Some Jews might not want a national homeland (many ultra-orthodox are anti-zionist). Others may support the idea but not the practice.

Judaism is the dominant religion of the Jewish people and most people who practice Judaism are of Jewish origin, just like most people who practice Hinduism are of Indian origin. But you can most certainly be ethnically Jewish and not practice Judaism. And you can also practice Judaism and not be ethnically Jewish. The Jewish religion and the Jewish people, while closely related, are not the same thing (which does make things complicated!).

In fact, the original proponents of Zionism such as Theodor Herzl were secular Jews (he considered himself an atheist).

handsup

it's far more than that though. If it's the UK giving money then perhaps this graphic will help (Israeli doesn't get a penny)
www.theguardian.com/global-development/datablog/2012/sep/26/uk-aid-money-key-datasets

Giving money and aid is certainly not based on human rights, there are many countries getting billions of pounds of British money with far more dismal human rights than Israel like Pakistan, Rwanda, Burma, Nigeria and Sudan. Israel looks like Mother Theresa in comparison to that motley crew.

Although I don't think the censure and focus on Israel is a bad thing for Israel, I think it's helpful in the long run even if Israel doesn't like it. I like to think the constant focus on Israel is because Israel is a Western liberal democracy and should thus be held to those standards but sometimes I smell a hefty dose of hypocrisy and in some cases a nasty whiff of anti-semitism which motivates singling Israel out among all the other nasty things going on in the world.

Many do complain & are appalled by injustices in other parts of the world yet when the spotlight is on Israel, the anti Semitism get of jail free card is used which I feel is disingenuous.

It is equally disingenuous to claim that because some (I'd say even much or most) of the criticism is justified, that some isn't motivated by anti-semitism.

The two are mirror images of one another. The fact that anti-semitism drives some of the criticism of Israel makes it possible for those who wish to deflect any criticism to call it anti-semitic.

I've seen both.

And while people may be appalled by what else is happening in the world, a disproportionate amount of outrage and censure is reserved for Israel. Like, I said, not necessarily a bad thing for Israel but why is it so?

It is so because people are anti-semitic. They do not like Jews. They can argue as much as they like, but fundamentally they are like people who say 'I am not racist because I know a balck person' or 'how can I be misogynistic as I love my mum'.

Such a 21st century debate...

Look at the map of the middle east and see how little Israel contributes to the area.

Look at the history of the region, especially with regard to Britain and the USA.

Israel is almost irrelevant in the context of the middle east let alone the world yet it's past and it's current sponsors (USA) give it a prominence far in excess of its actual relevance.

And while people may be appalled by what else is happening in the world, a disproportionate amount of outrage and censure is reserved for Israel

I think the problem is impunity.

Both the US and the UK refuse to ever sanction Israel, whereas with other outrages around the world, sanctions are put in place and the government in question is criticised on mainstream media. However when it comes to Israel we have listen to the media, such as the BBC justifying the bombardment of schools, trying to make it sound like there are two equal sides, equally responsible and equally suffering.

carol One thing is for sure, I will never be in fear of criticizing Netanyahu but by continuing to call me and others anti Semitic for doing so - the definition will eventually lose it's currency which no one wants.

Israel's justice minister calls for the destruction of Palestinian mothers and their "little snakes". This is coming from a supposedly civilised country's now 'justice' minister. Killing children is not the action of a 'civilised' country.
setting children alight is not the action of a civilised nation. Restricting calorie intake of those in Gaza is not a civilised measure to take. Caging innocents in an open air prison is not civilised. The level of depravity reached by Netanyahu and his cronies has reached a new depth. Do not create a new apartheid state, it is most certainly not civilised.

Egos - I can accept that reasoning and agree with it somewhat. I hope it explains much of the disproportionate interest in Israel - but I think it's only a partial explanation.

Atenco - I disagree with the impunity reasoning. Britain gives billions to countries who do far worse than Israel like Pakistan for example.

Purpleturtles - talking about 'the depths of depravity' is an example of the hyperbole and hypocrisy I'm referring to. Israel isn't 'the depths of depravity' but a country involved in a complex conflict which has involved abuses on both sides. I could come up with hundreds of examples of Palestinian depravity but I don't think the Palestinians or the State of Palestine is depraved. Very unhelpful but typical of Israel haters.

Handsup - there's a huge amount of criticism of Netanyahu within Israel and among the wider Jewish community, it's certainly not anti-semitic to do so.

I don't think that's what Carol is referring to.

Ego - your post at 15.11 appears quite orientalist and imperialist to me. You seem to expect Arabs to behave badly, but "civilized" Israel should behave better. And what happens when the Israelis face rocket fire? Should they just grin and bear it for fear of upsetting Western "liberals"? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.....

Egos

I think most democracies - if faced with the same conditions as Israel - would behave much the same in terms of the military. Britain and the US did some awful stuff in Iraq and Afghanistan when faced with militants hiding among a civilian population. Look at the terrible abuses of Britain in Kenya and France in Algeria just 50 years ago in the 1960s. Compared to what the French did in Algeria, Israel is extremely restrained and France was separated from Algeria by the Med, in Israel it's all much closer to home (this is not a justification - just context - I don't want Israel to be like France in Algeria!) .

The problem is political, it's the occupation and conflict. But both sides are responsible for the failure of the peace process and the opportunity to end the occupation and conflict.

The Palestinians are the main victims and underdog in this conflict, no doubt. But their victimhood doesn't mean that they aren't also significant actors who also influence the events.