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Original poster

Punishing while potty training

128 replies

purpleteapig · 10/08/2015 17:22

I know the general advice is no punishments, just rewards etc etc, but I'm starting to wonder if this is the way to go. We have a dis just turned 3 who's been toilet training for a few weeks and he can definitely do it (everyone is of this belief - us, staff at nursery etc) but chooses not to at times. He'll poo/wee at the most inopportune moments and recently has done it when we've put him in time out for bad behaviour. If they were accidents I obviously wouldn't dream of doing this but they are definitely not!

We are both getting v frustrated by it and were considering using a punishment such as no tv for that day to try and break this cycle. What do ppl think about this - is it unreasonable? I genuinely don't know what to do if this isn't the answer, as feel we've tried most other stuff such as lots of praise & encouragement, sticker charts, treats...

OP posts:
ReallyTired · 11/08/2015 14:31

Ha! ha! I did force the pace to teach ds to walk.. (with the help of NHS physio). There are ways of gently persauding a child to poo or wee in the right place. There are many schools of thought on how this should be done. (Ie. elimiation communciation, Gina Ford miltary boot camp or allowing the child to teach themselves.)

This book is out of print, but it helped with my stubborn son.

Toilet Learning: The Picture Book Technique for Children and Parents

www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/toilet-learning-the-picture-book-technique-for-children-and-parents/author/mack-alison/

I feel that many small children don't understand what is wanted of them. It can be confusing changing from nappies to using a toilet. My children also played with a doll that weed and we had fun telling off dolly for weeing in the wrong place.

Rather than punishing a child, try to think of ways of getting them to understand what they need to do. If a child could not do maths you would take a step back and think how to explain a concept. You would not punish a child for thinking 2+2=22

Aeroflotgirl · 11/08/2015 15:10

You are right *really, you are. Thank you all so much for all your helpful advice and links. I was taking out my frustrations on him.

IceBeing · 11/08/2015 15:21

Well it IS frustrating! But the frustration is essentially caused by adults caring about things like not having wee and poo on the floor which kids aren't really bothered by Grin. And also by adults feeling they should be toilet trained on some schedule set by other peoples children....

I think toilet training may be unique in being a milestone that is almost entirely adult-centred. The child essentially doesn't benefit from it at all. DD learned to crawl and walk because she wanted to go places...she seemed to quite accurately work out that stopping wearing nappies actually made her life slightly less easy, fun and all round enjoyable. I think the kids that train early must actually dislike the sensation of warm wee on them...or the sensation of a full nappy and hence there is something in it for them.

When ever I got the "damn it she SHOULD BE TRAINED BY NOW rage" I would remind myself that making it into a battle, or a big thing of any sort was going to vastly increase the chances of all sorts of psychological issues around toilets that some children unfortunately continue to suffer for years and years after starting school.

I would remind myself that I would very much prefer to weather the odd slightly uncomfortable raised eyebrow or held tilt now and then, than have DD upset and miserable for years...

Lweji · 11/08/2015 15:40

If it helps, I told ds that there were no more nappies in the world (we even looked for them in the supermarket and found none, ahem) and we just went cold turkey night and day. But only because he was already fully dry at night.

Aeroflotgirl · 11/08/2015 15:51

I know ice it's kind of ds is 3.8 looks like a five year old as he is quite tall, he really shoukd be out of nappies kind of thing. The more frustrated I become the worse it gets, I transfer my issues to him, which I do not want. The more upset he would get and wet even more. I am just putting the potty in the lounge he knows it's there and what it's used for and leave it to him. Same with the toilet too. He is interested in U.S. And his sister going and likes to watch. I will not take him every half hour as he dislikes that, and just remind him every so often. He has a delay which makes it slower. I think dd trained quickly, as she has ASD and disliked the feeling of being soiled.

ThisFenceIsComfy · 12/08/2015 14:03

I don't think the OP was asking for potty training advice per se. More how to deal with defiant weeing, not just an accident. So more like a potty training regression iyswim.

IceBeing · 12/08/2015 14:19

aero it sounds like you are doing the right things by your DS! Just keep reminding yourself that expectations, especially other peoples, are totally valueless when dealing with any individual child.

Maybe ask him if he wants a break and to wear nappies or pull ups for a while....a breather can be nice!

I feel like kids learn that way a lot...they have a go at something...make a hash of it...don't bother with it for a few weeks or months...then POW - they are suddenly doing it perfectly. Everything was this way for DD...crawling, walking, signing, talking, counting, phonics, and definitely toilet training!

Aeroflotgirl · 12/08/2015 14:37

Ice we are having a breakthrough, I am calmer now, not reminding him or taking him every 30 mins which he hated, he is using the potty and the toilet, forgetting to pull down his pants though. That's ok, I am happy he us recognising the signs and getting himself there and seeing in the toilet/potty. I feel so bad, previously I was shouting at him which was awful Sad.

Aeroflotgirl · 12/08/2015 14:39

Ice ds motor milestones were delayed, walking at 17 months, can't peddle a bike yet. Yes he will get there eventually without me getting angry.

Aeroflotgirl · 12/08/2015 14:39

He has started to, let's me know when he has pooed or wet

ReallyTired · 12/08/2015 14:46

"Ice ds motor milestones were delayed, walking at 17 months, can't peddle a bike yet. Yes he will get there eventually without me getting angry."

That is is normal. Ds took his first steps at 22 months old and mainly crawled until he was two and half. Ds physio told us that if a child can sit by two they will walk by four years old. She was completely right, but the anxiety was awful. Lots of children twice your son's age cannot pedal a bike. It is hard not to worry if you are surrounded by people with genius children who can all walk and talk before a year.

I remember feeling quite isolated when my son was developmentally delayed. It is sad that incontinance is not given the same level of sympathy as a child who cannot walk.

"He has started to, let's me know when he has pooed or wet"

Well done

Aeroflotgirl · 12/08/2015 15:21

I know reallytired in my area I seemed to see 2 year olds who are fully potty trained, riding a bike without stabilisers at 4, and talking for England. Ds has a 1.5 year old speech delay which does not help. But we are making good progress, thanks so much really, it is coming in stages, not all at once like some peoples DC on here. The calmer I am, the better Smile.

TheHungryCaterpillow · 12/08/2015 15:24

aero assuming you're not American, don't give him pants for now. Just trousers/shorts. It's more complicated for them at first. Did this with DD and once she was used to going to the toilet, she asked for them. But it was 2-3 weeks after we started. My Ds is nearly 6 and can't pedal a bike.

Aeroflotgirl · 12/08/2015 15:31

The hungry he just has a t shirt and briefs(pants) he sits on the potty without taking them down but I am pleased he's wee on the potty

mathanxiety · 12/08/2015 15:40

Lots of very wise words here. I think potty training along with feeding is an issue where a parent can end up feeling extremely desperate and frustrated. The business is complicated by the fact that toddlers are not rational people and no appeal to reason is going to help (along the lines of 'wouldn't it be nicer if the sitting room didn't smell of poo?').

I used a book called 'Toilet Training in Less Than a Day' by Foxx and Azrin. It took more than a day, but what I loved about it was how precisely laid out all the steps were (which I ended up adapting while maintaining the positive, cheerful, encouraging tone asked for.) It took away the feeling that I was embarking on a trip through uncharted territory or risking screwing up the DCs, or ending up as adversaries battling through a learning experience.

One of the key elements of the Foxx/Azrin approach is giving the child complete ownership of the pottying process. Everything is done by the child including mopping up floors and wiping wet legs and feet, with the adult in a facilitating/encouraging role.

Aeroflotgirl · 12/08/2015 15:42

math that's what I did to do and it really helped her

IceBeing · 12/08/2015 15:51

Im glad things are calmer and happier at the moment! It is so easy to get wound up in expectations - I am in a constant battle with myself over it!

Aeroflotgirl · 12/08/2015 16:31

Thanks ice, just bought the book math recommended. Hopefully it will help.

rainbowrob · 12/08/2015 21:29

You are being massively unreasonable,
You're exhausted, you feel like you've tried everything, you can't see an end to it, I can see why but you're looking for a magic fix one step solution that just doesn't exist.

Kids are all different, not every child is the same and capable of doing things in the same way or at the same time as the next person, the best thing you can do for the two of you is take a massive step back and relax, have a whole lot of patience and get down on his level. Talk to him. Try not to get frustrated and keep it calm and simple and if he's struggling ask him gentle questions like if he's scared ect and see if you can get to the route cause.

I've never yet known a child deliberately poo on purpose at that age and it not be an accident so it may well be down to stress or fear of the situation and punishment really won't help that, he needs you to be as calm as possible. It may be worth giving him a break for a few weeks and back to nappies and letting you both calm down (after all he knows the drill with potty training and how it works) and then gently explain to him "Shall we wear our big boy pants tomorrow and try going on the potty?", and introduce it gently again, They say it only works when they're ready and he may just need a short time to calm down and relax for it. Someone will probably be along in a minute with a better idea mind!

Original poster
purpleteapig · 12/08/2015 21:56

Stacklady - thanks v much for posting that advice from a previous thread. That's really useful and has some things I hadn't thought of. It's easy to feel a bit mired down when you're in the middle of it but this gives me hope!

I'm surprised by some of these responses saying that they don't believe some kids poo on purpose and that it's always an accident - maybe you haven't experienced it first-hand, but you can see that other posters on this thread have been through similar with their (stubborn) kids.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 13/08/2015 01:43

I really think you should step back and rethink the potty training, and also the labelling of your just turned 3 child as stubborn.

You need to recalibrate your expectations.

What are the behaviours aside from pottying that make you think he is stubborn?

Iliveinalighthousewiththeghost · 13/08/2015 01:55

I get it. It's hard not to push them. Little Mary-Leigh from down the road and Peter from around the corner are both potty trained and they're both younger than yours but punishment is not the way To do it. All children are different. Easy for me to spout out but relax. He'll do it when he is ready. Getting worked up Is not going to help matters.
If you Are overly concerned can you not speak to a health visitor

seaoflove · 13/08/2015 11:00

You think a three year old can't be stubborn mathanxiety? You haven't met my daughter then.

schlong · 13/08/2015 11:35

Do you want your poor ds to grow into a neurotic shit fixated fetishist op? Ffs lay off him. You sound almost abusive. My ds toilet trained hmself at 2 over one long hot summer when I just let him roam the house without a nappy on and he figured it out for himself and made his way to go he loo with stool and penguin seat reducer in place. Yeah I was constantly cleaning up his little accidents but so what? Seriously you're damaging hm with your approach. Just the anxiety of annoying you will make hm crap himself. I really feel for him.

IceBeing · 13/08/2015 13:14

My god a 3yo can DEFINITELY be stubborn. DD is the epitome of stubborn. That is exactly why we let her chose how and when to toilet train rather than trying to force it on her at our chosen pace!

Actually I take it all back! DD isn't stubborn because that implies she was BU. But taking control of your own bodily functions isn't being U...it is in fact totally reasonable.

OP your DS is probably looking for and wanting more autonomy...maybe with the loo but probably just in general. Maybe try giving it to him? Let him have his say in decisions more often - particularly those that affect him specifically. Maybe you will both be happier and less frustrated then.