Punishing while potty training

[purpleteapig]

I know the general advice is no punishments, just rewards etc etc, but I'm starting to wonder if this is the way to go. We have a dis just turned 3 who's been toilet training for a few weeks and he can definitely do it (everyone is of this belief - us, staff at nursery etc) but chooses not to at times. He'll poo/wee at the most inopportune moments and recently has done it when we've put him in time out for bad behaviour. If they were accidents I obviously wouldn't dream of doing this but they are definitely not!

We are both getting v frustrated by it and were considering using a punishment such as no tv for that day to try and break this cycle. What do ppl think about this - is it unreasonable? I genuinely don't know what to do if this isn't the answer, as feel we've tried most other stuff such as lots of praise & encouragement, sticker charts, treats...

I realise this is a little bit of a silly question if your oldest child is only three years old. Would you punish a child who struggled with reading? Learning to use the toilet is a skill, like using cutlery, walking, numeracy, literacy or even driving a car. Most of us have forgotten having toilet accidents, most of us wet our knickers at some point in our lives.

If your and your partner can use a toilet your child will get there in time. Punishment will not get him there any faster.

Your right really we wouldent. We woukdent punish a toddler who was struggling to learn to walk or talk.

If it has become a battleground, then the praise for doing it right might be making it worse, think in the same way, you will have praised and made a fuss the first time a dc walked, but you stopped quickly making a big deal about it. Treat it as something normal, no fuss for getting it right, no fuss for accidents, no emotion and no battleground to be "won" or "lost".

It will be hard not To show any emotion like disappointment when he has accidents, particularly if you think it's done delibrately to annoy you, but just be matter of fact about it.

Not read thread sorry, however I would never ever ever ever ever punish.

There was a good clip on This morning a few weeks back with some expert norland nanny, who is now on tv helping families with small child issues.

One caller came on about potty training and she said "just stop it, the child is not ready, they are peeing on your carpet, for whatever reason, its showing you the child is not ready"

It astonishes me how much pressure people put on their dc to potty train.

Your child is not ready op.

A child who is ready will have a few accidents and thats it.

i dont understand why some parents make such a performance about it?

Nanny said - nappies back on, forget all about training for month then try afresh, she said - and I totally agree with this - knowing adults who were harmed from being forced, it can do more damage than its worth to push!

The OP isn't talking about major punishment, just with-holding TV for one day

No, any association at all with negative consequences for not properly using loo etc is cruel.

Whatever you think of the severity of the punishment, its still - punishment and the parent has punishment in mind.

Its wrong.

We've been nappy free for a month now, after two failed attempts. 3.5 now. I read a book which said no pants- just put them straight into trousers/shorts at first. Takes away the feeling if something close i.e. nappy that they're used to weeing in and less complicated for them. Also don't say well done. Just "thank you for using the potty/toilet" as it makes them feel they haven't done well if they don't make it. We had one accident first day, after two weeks, asked to wear pants and no accidents since. Don't get much warning, but so far enough to run to a toilet!

I can feel your pain, I had a child who was perfectly capable of using a toilet but up until the age of 5 would have 'accidents' at resstaurants/peoples houses/right in the middle of soft play, then tell me "I'm so happy you're with me now, I didn't really need to go" or similar!

So basically, just for attention! In the end any any accidents were met with "Go and change your pants and trousers please" and nothing else. It stopped pretty quickly when he realised there was no more attention.

The OP isn't talking about major punishment, just with-holding TV for one day

Which the perfectly rational 3 year old child will totally get as a really small punishment that's not going to cause any confusion or distress.

Disappointedone, thank you for sharing these threads.

qz.com/310622/the-scientific-evidence-against-spanking-timeouts-and-sleep-training/

To consider something 'scientific evidence', I require a reference list of robust, evidence-based research. Otherwise, I treat it as another personal opinion.

Purpleteapig I had a wilful toddler who refused to use the potty/toilet. She screamed at me she was never ever using it, after 3 days of doing it no problem. It became a battle of wills.

So I told her, that is the toilet you know how to use it. You are in charge of your wee and poo not me. Accidents are fine, but you have to sit int the bath whilst I tidy it up then I have to wash you down. I made it as long winded as possibly could so she got fed up of it. I then bought a nice doll she liked the look of and told her if she used to the toilet se could play with it for 30 mins and if she was really good at using the toilet she would eventually keep it.

Instant success.

OP, I'm going to re-post some brilliant advice from Neolara from another thread - it has helped many, and you might want to give it a go:

"My dd was a nightmare potty training and I had similar experiences to you. It used to enrage me more than anything else about raising my kids. I ended up talking to a very experienced nursery teacher about this and after following her suggestions, things improved literally overnight. I'd say we cracked it totally within a few days after at least a year of hell. It also worked on dc3 when she went a period of pooing in her pants.

OK, this was the plan......

Firstly, I was to tell my dd that big girls do poos in the loo. Mummy does. Granny does. Teacher does. That's just what happens. Then don't go on about it any more.

Secondly, if she did a poo in her pants, I was totally to ignore it. I might make some comment like "Oh, it's a bit smelly in here" but then walk away. After a while, pooey pants start to hurt and dd would come to tell me what had happened. No chasing her round the house trying to get her to get changed (which was a lovely game)

Thirdly, if she had done a poo in her pants, I would take her to the bathroom, hand her the wipes, tell her she had to clean herself up all in an absolutely-I'm-not-at-all-bothered-about-this kind of way. I might stay in the bathroom, doing a bit of cleaning, but I wouldn't look at her/ comment/ give praise, hurry her up /help her etc. At the end, once she'd had a really good go, I'd give a quick wipe. Dc3, who was a bit more fiesty than DC1, would stand in the bathroom screaming at me hysterically at this point, so I'd just walk away and leave her too it. If she was naked and covered in poo, I wouldn't let her leave the bathroom until she'd cleaned herself up. Initially, the screaming could go on for 20 mins or so but after a day or so she just stopped.

Fourth, once she was all cleaned up, I'd give absolutely no praise but tell her to go find some clean clothes and put them on.

Repeat the next time.

Literally, it took 48 hours and things were completely sorted. The trick is to totally make it your child's problem and nothing to do with you. Sort of, "that's fine darling, you do a poo in your pants if you want, but then you have to deal with it" with a tinkly laugh. You have to be utterly and totally zen about it. If they get even the slightest inking that what they are doing is getting to you in any way, you are doomed! A cross look, a tense tone of voice, a raised eye-brow - they are all ammunition for your dc.

If your dc has constipation issues with leakage then obviously this method won't work. But if he is just being bloody minded, the above approach is definitely worth a try.

Good luck!"

Haven't read tft but I read an interesting article before attempting it with my ds 2.8-9 at time. It worked an absolute dream, he was so 'empowered', for want of a better word, by being in charge of such a big step in his life. I can honestly say zero stress, can't remember more than one 'didn't get there on time'. Trick is, it's not about you being happy/sad/angry/proud. Hand it back him and he will do it when he's ready. Will root out the article.

www.janetlansbury.com/2014/08/3-reasons-kids-dont-need-toilet-training-and-what-to-do-instead/

Worth a try. Trust him.

Also, I never reminded him but left it up to him and instead of 'good boy' etc I said 'You did it by yourself', 'You got there on time' etc. Overthinking it maybe but he is my pfb I will be the exact same with psb

Hi, haven't read the thread, but my experience is that getting cross goes nowhere but bribery works wonders. My three year old can go for weeks at a time with no accidents, as long as I keep reminding her she can have a treat later if no accidents. When I get complacent and think she has cracked it so stop bribery we have four or five accidents a day. She seems to just need an incentive. Maybe rather than taking away tv as punishment you could offer it as a treat later if no accidents?

I don't think you should punish but should up the rewards when he 'performs'. Ime (3 kids) 3 seems quite old to be potty training. My three were all dry except occasionally at night by 2. The boy was a bit less consistent and definitely did 'naughty' things eg doing a poo on the stairs at age 2.5! Everybody is different though so don't put my experience down as 'normal' whatever you do. All we ever did was offer potty then loo itself consistently at times we knew they tended to 'go' so they had ten opportunity. Read books on potty etc. then just always had potty around and loo door open (lucky as we had downstairs loo)

I wonder if a chat to GP or Health Visitor might give you more ideas?

We did child led toilet training. Many of our friends did the same and had kids that trained between 2 and 4 yo.

DD has had chronic constipation issues since birth and only gave up nappies just after 4yo. Before that age she volunteered several times that she wanted to try pants...but always found it too stressful and went back to nappies.

The advantages of child led toilet training are:

1. No battle of wills
2. No accidents
3. No pestering them to see if they need to go or not
4. No reward charts / stickers
5. Definitely no punishments

Ice what is chikd led toilet training. Do you put them in pull ups if they are having accidents. Ds is 3.7 years with a dev delay of about 1.5 years. He has started to go wee on the potty by himself, sometimes he has accidents. I am reluctant to put him back in a pull up now that he is beginning to make that connection.

OP I felt like this when 3.1yo DS had pretty much cracked it but just couldn't be bothered to go to the loo. Until then, any accidents were met with a "whoops, doesn't matter" as they were accidents. These, though, weren't accidents but deliberate wees on the floor. My response to these was to use a firmer tone and say "no wees on the floor. You must remember to use the loo" and then I chose his next pants meaning he didn't get his favourite dinosaur or football ones. If I was in any doubt as to whether it was an accident or not or if there was an extenuating circumstance like being tired, somewhere unfamiliar etc then DS got the accident response.
I also changed the reward structure. He still got praise after each trip to the loo but no longer got a chocolate button as well. Instead, I bought three little cars and he was allowed one if dry all day. He didn't get one on the first day as there was an intentional puddle (announced he needed a wee but refused to go to the loo or use the potty - he was just testing boundaries) but was dry for the next three days & got all of his cars. Since then, accidents have been few & far between (once a fortnight if that).

Areo it is simply letting the child decide if they want to nappies or pants at the moment...on a day by day basis if that's what they want.

Most children don't want to wear pants and get wet all the time...so if they are having a lot of accidents then they likely would prefer to be in nappies. If they are desperate to wear pants but keep getting wet then I guess pull ups would be a reasonable compromise.

DD did quite a bit of to-ing and fro-ing but also some quite long periods of nappies and quite long periods of pants. There was no sign of confusion. She would sometimes have a quick check to see what she was wearing before opting for the loo or not needing to...but we basically didn't have any accidents.

I am not sure I see that pull ups are a regressive step...it seems to me that they give him the chance to do a wee on the potty/loo if it goes well and minimise clear up if not. If wearing pull ups means he doesn't bother with the loo then I guess he isn't really wanting to take that step yet.

Areo that's the same as I did-take a look at the article above but as iceberg said it's basically offering nappy or pants at each change and going with the child's choice. Never used pullups even on car journey but always had potty and was prepared to stop anywhere!!

ahh ice berg... I have a name now for what i did...

both have issues. both have disabilities that were undiagnosed at the time and were late training. endured lots of comments about should do this and should do that and it is now apparent that there were reasons they were late training.

both did it when they were ready and we are very laid back about it...just as well really. it is not worth the hassle and cleaning up and getting them stressed.

I don't actually know if that is an official name...but it seemed to describe the approach of following the kids lead

I don't know if it is a thing but lots of people have certainly independently or otherwise realised that chasing kids around with potties and sticker charts is actually a nuts way to behave.

As someone said up thread...who gave out stickers, punishments or generally tried to force the pace while their kid was learning to crawl or walk?