To think we are more divided by class, than race.

[WendyLooes]

I keep hearing the phase white privilege and can't understand it. I live in the North of England and some of the communities up hear are 99% white and living in poverty.

I understand that in many parts of London minority communities are also in poverty. I think that these people are bot victims of classism in modern Britain.

I once heard a story about Tudor Britain, London had a small black community which was protected by the English peasants.

This is not to say racism is not still a problem, however I believe classism is much more of an issue then racism.

I reject terms like white privilege because I think we need to make a bigger deal of class privilege. I honestly believe very few people are racist. The idiots that I have come across are reading (insert right wing paper) and doing exactly what the upper classes love a divided working class.

So aibu to think terms like white privilege keep us divided. The same as the right wing press. They both cause resentment.

[Boofy27]

I acknowledge that I'm privileged in terms of being educated and not poor. However, I have a problem with the term 'white privilege', I think it comes from the notion that not experiencing racism is a privilege rather than a right. I have problems around the notion of 'white guilt', the majority of poor white people haven't benefited from the exploitation of black people, if anything they have been further exploited by the exploitation of black people.

Sadly, I see as much on MN as in the rest of the life in Europe, those who are only left the crumbs of capitalism, willing to fight amoung each other for the measly leftovers rather than wondering why they're not getting a bit more cake.

[Lurkedforever1]

I'm not sure at an individual level you can always say one causes the most damage. The experience of a white child from a massively socially disadvantaged background has got to be more damaging than being the non white child of caring, well educated middle class parents.
What the phrase 'white privilege' doesn't take into account is the fact the English, especially when they became Church of England, spent centuries abusing irish Catholics. In English ruled Ireland they were the British version of slavery in the states. And when the irish were desperate enough to come to England they were victims of racism in the same way a non white person could be. The Irish Catholic experience had nothing in common with white privilege and everything in common with any other form of racism. And the Irish travellers still get it today. They are the one group above any other that still get daily in your face racism.

[GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter]

In English ruled Ireland they were the British version of slavery in the states.

That's total bollocks.

[TheCowThatLaughs]

I've always known that racism is a problem since having a British Asian friend as a child who was often called "paki". I didn't really realise or have to think about how much deeper than mere name-calling the effects of racism go, because I'm white in a predominantly white country, it's not really something I experience, so that's one example of my white privilege, the privilege to not have to worry about or even think about such things happening while I go about my day to day business. And it is quite a privilege.
There was a thread on here a while ago in the feminist section I think where a mother was saying that she had to tell her children that if they want to achieve anything, they have to be 10 times better and work 10 times harder and behave 10 times better than if they were white. And that anything they did would be extrapolated to "that's what black people do". And various other shitty stuff. And I can't imagine having to tell my dc that because I'm in the privileged position of not having to.
And none of this negates the differences between social classes in this country or means that poor white people don't also have problems. I don't understand why the op is saying it's an either/or situation.

[FreudiansSlipper]

If white privilege is not accepted and challenged how can we progress

I have witnessed and people close to me have experienced racism

We until recently had a party that you could only join of you were from a white Christian background

I was taught in school and most paintings showed me Jesus the son of god was a white man

Recent history that has shaped much of the world has been created by white men

I know that apart from the odd offensive remark me being white is not going to impact my life i shall not have to prove myself because of this

Although I do not believe that all supporters of UKIP are racist many are and they gained nearly three times the amount of votes as the libdems

Of course there is issues with class and sexism but to not be able to see white privilege when you have some knowledge of history is questionable do you not want to see it

It is not easy to look at yourself and realise that you have this privilege it's so conditioned that it has to be pointed out it does not mean that guilt has to be felt just acknowledged it is there even if your life it does not appear to be this way look at the bigger picture

[Boofy27]

That's total bollocks.

Ah Cromwell, the man the English can never remember and the Irish can never forget.

[QuestioningStuff]

Ahh, white people living with white privilege complaining about people accusing them of having privileges.

The irony.

sits on hands

[Lurkedforever1]

No George, it's not bollocks. Unless you have access to a whole load of new historical evidence nobody else has heard of. I didn't say it was as bad compared as black slavery in the states, because it wasn't and even the similarities were on a much smaller scale. Just that it was the British equivalent.
The English didn't sell Irish Catholic peasants, but they worked and starved them to death instead. Can't remember where I read it but it was something along the lines of being free to watch your children starve, watching the landowner rape your mother and wife, saying farewell forever to family leaving to find work and working yourself into an early grave, is no freedom at all. Where do you think the ira and all the troubles stemmed from?

[FundamentalistQuaker]

Not you Buffs I know you are ideologically sound.

FGS yourself, Ubik

[FuzzyWizard]

I think the problem is that we treat prejudice and disadvantage as if they are separate. So we think that if you are poor them you experience classism; poor and back- classism + racism; poor black woman- classism + racism + sexism. In reality prejudice and disadvantage is more complex than that.

The idea that class is the most important disadvantage and that everyone should work together to solve it is a nice idea but ignores the fact that classism affects people of different races and ethnic groups differently. For example poor white Brits are characterised as feckless and lazy, poor white Poles are likely to be characterised as hardworking but ultimately happy to live in cramped, inadequate conditions. Both are damaging... Which one should be the priority for tackling first?
This is the problem with this kind of argument- the classism that people talk about is often tainted by white-solipsism, it assumes that the default experience for the working classes is the white experience.

It's sort of like in the 60s when white middle-class feminists tried to claim that sexism was the biggest issue facing black women. It alienated many black women because those white feminists often failed to see that black women didn't experience sexism in the same way and were stereotyped differently- the priorities of the women's movement in those days was heavily slanted towards the problems white women were experiencing. For example middle class white women's fighting for better access to the workplace and then employing working class black women at low cost to do their housework. It didn't exactly encourage solidarity.

I'd highly recommend the work of Elizabeth Spelman on this issue.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I think people get very confused about what privilege means. It doesn't mean that you will succeed or even that you really experience any everyday boosts from your privilege. It also doesn't mean that there won't be hurdles. It also doesn't mean that every one will experience the same privilege from the same class. There are often similarities, though.

Women in most cultures experience unwanted sexual attention of one form or another.

Men of colour often experience inequalities in the criminal justice system.

Poor people frequently can't access adequate educational resources.

Gay people may be subject to violence and fear.

Even if you are lucky enough to not have any direct experience of these things, as a person in these groups/classes you know this happens and behave accordingly. Women are told to walk/dress/act a certain way to avoid unwanted 'trouble'. Men of colour certainly don't talk to the Police the same way I do. Or act the way I do when stopped (infrequently in my case). Because I know damn well that there is zero chance of me being beaten up in the back of a van. Or put on remand for no good reason.

People don't experience these things evenly, or consistently but enough that it becomes a class/gender/race thing, rather than just a thing.

[Ubik1]

Not you Buffs I know you are ideologically sound.

[GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter]

The 'Irish slaves' myth has been floating around the internet for quite a while. It's especially popular amongst racist right-wing sites, because it appears to undermine the unique horror of the African-American experience of slavery.

It is a myth. The work of Liam Hogan shows this very clearly (and he's really good on twitter as well). No serious historian has ever published work in support of this myth. Indentured servitude, unpleasant though it may have been, was NOT comparable to slavery.

Can't remember where I read it but it was something along the lines of being free to watch your children starve, watching the landowner rape your mother and wife, saying farewell forever to family leaving to find work and working yourself into an early grave, is no freedom at all. Where do you think the ira and all the troubles stemmed from

That's so wrongheaded and simplistic I hardly know where to start. You really should get some of your historical evidence from, you know, a history book (and Tin Pot Coogan doesn't count) rather than a maudlin ballad.

Boofy your assumptions about my nationality are mistaken, btw.

[Bambambini]

Ubik - i grew up in a wc council estate town in the west of scotland. There was practically no non white folk. You can have a bunch of dirt poor folk of the same race and still have some kind of privilege going on. For me growing up it was the catholic/ protestant thing with protestants having more privelege so i can completely accept the concept of white privilege and that poor black folk have just that something extra to deal with that white folk dont. It's just that in a community of almost all white folk - they don't really need to think of race matters as it doesn't affect them.

[Casimir]

I see no solution to this. 'Same as it ever was'. Annoying to me is the privileged ones -race, financial, networked whatever - pretend they achieve because of their hard work and talent only, and we go along with it. Everyone I meet in this country who is officially regarded as successful, scrape the surface, and tada, privileged. Everyone. So I really have no respect for them.

[Lurkedforever1]

George I didn't get it from the Internet. The internet wasn't around at the time. Did read plenty of books, but a hell of a lot of my irish knowledge has always come straight from the horses mouth. So don't tell me it's simplistic or wrong. And you discredit yourself, not me by trying to imply I'm using it to undermine black slavery. Although I find it offensive as fuck that you are trying to make out I'm comparing the two. I haven't got a clue what racist sites are using it for that purpose, as my irish knowledge came long before the web. Educate yourself before you start making derogatory comments that just go to show how little you know.

[GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter]

Lurkedforever1, now that you know of the sort of intellectual bedfellows that are making similar arguments to you, perhaps it might give you pause? Did you read the link I posted?

a hell of a lot of my irish knowledge has always come straight from the horses mouth. So don't tell me it's simplistic or wrong

Horse's mouth? What do you mean by that?

[Lurkedforever1]

george I disagree. It's perfectly possible to see the full horror of black slavery, without denying that irish catholics from an historical view aren't subject to the white privilege their skin colour implies. It's not necessary to compare the English treatment of Irish Catholics to black slavery to admit it was disgusting. Treatment of a race or religion doesn't need to be as bad as black slavery or the holocaust etc to be horrific in itself. My point is that while the English trot out the line 'we as a nation didn't have black slavery, aren't we nice', morally they were no better because of their treatment of irish Catholics. Not forgetting British involvement in black slavery from the cotton industry. Because some racist loons have taken what happened in Ireland and twisted it (hence you jumping to the conclusion I was following that train of thought) it doesn't follow that we should then deny centuries of abuse to the Irish just incase someone leaps to the conclusion we're right wing racists. Modern white slavery is still called slavery, without the phrase being seen as a racist denial of black slavery, so it's also possible to apply the word to the English treatment of the Irish without it being taken as an equal comparison. It didn't need to be as bad as black slavery to still be a form of slavery. There is a good reason for a chunk of history about Catholic emancipation. A word that isn't applicable if you're already free.
We admit that racial repercussions still felt today stem in the main from English colonisation and the historical abuse of other races, just because Ireland came under the heading of Britain and the inhabitants were white doesn't make it any less so.
The fact Irish travellers are the last remaining group it's socially acceptable to be overtly racist towards in Britain says quite a lot. Maybe they are a red herring in the correct use of the term 'white privilege' but they no more have white privilege than any non white does.
By horses mouth I mean first hand accounts, and/or family histories, and not just from one small group or area. The Ira didn't start as a bunch of terrorists planting bombs, it's original purpose before being hijacked for terrorism was normal people wanting equal rights.

[GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter]

Do you even know what Catholic Emancipation was? Clearly not, if you're likening it IN ANY WAY to slavery. The penal laws WERE NOT slavery. You perhaps are getting confused by the word 'Emancipation' - it referred to full voting rights (such as they existed) being extended to Catholics. Not personal liberty from enslavement.

The structural violence of the British presence in Ireland shouldn't be glossed over, of course, but using the analogy of slavery to describe British actions in Ireland is inaccurate and offensive.

PS Irish emigrants were extremely and violently racist towards African-Americans in the United States. They had white privilege there aplenty.

[FuzzyWizard]

Actually I think Irish Catholics are an excellent example of white privilege. The British treated Irish Catholics appallingly, they were legally discriminated against, denied basic rights, treated violently. But- however bad it got it never once occurred to the British to buy and sell their children, pack them naked into ship galleys and transport them across the Atlantic. Even though the British were doing exactly the same thing to Africans at the same time... That's white privilege. It doesn't meant that they were "privileged" in the sense of having all the advantages in life that rich white Protestants had. Just that there were some horrors that they were spared primarily because they were white.

[INickedAName]

This blog has some good examples of daily examples of white privilege.

white privilege

I'll admit that I didn't understand white privilege a while back. I'd read that I was privileged by being white, and took that to mean I had a good life, which wasn't true, we were dirt poor and at some points I hated life. I used to get angry at calling that being classed as a privilege. But then I looked outside my own lived experience, and considered others, and it's easy to ignore or not see issues that don't effect you.

I can walk into any cosmetic shop in my town have a choice of many foundations that will suit my skin, my black friend can't, because not one shop in our town stocks any. So she has to take the bus to the next town and hope that they stock it there, if she's lucky they will have a choice of two or three shades, (that usually cost more than mine too) compared to dozens and dozens of shades for my skin. In my ignorance I once moaned about too much choice, I simply hadn't thought anyone else could have trouble buying foundation. That's an example of white privilege.

[FuzzyWizard]

INicked- that's a really good everyday example.

[Ubik1]

But what does 'white privilege' mean? In a practical sense?

You can argue til the cows come home about who is/was/will be more oppressed than another group but how does it help anything?

At least by focusing on class there are real things you can do about it (not that the government is interested in helping WC folk of any colour or creed) which make a real difference for everyone.
You can make sure there is a safety net, you can put money in people's pockets, you can house them and keep them warm. By class these things are universally applied. It's not down to some scale of privilege.

[Lurkedforever1]

Again, it's not necessary for treatment of a race to be equal to black slavery to be horrific. Neither do I need a patronising lecture on what Catholic emancipation was. It's just very telling that word was used at the time and went down in the biased English history. The natives of India under the British raj weren't subject to exactly the same treatment as black slavery either. It doesn't mean they weren't subject to disgusting treatment with racial repercussions that still go on today. Nor were Indians packed wholesale into ships and transported. Doesn't mean they didn't suffer a form of slavery under British rule. Same for many other races, including the irish Catholics. Or indeed forms of slavery under any other white powerful rule. Being a pre revolution White Russian serf had no more white privilege than being a native born non white in a british colony.
Black slavery has more than enough horrors without needing the word 'slavery' to be only applicable to black slavery. It was bad enough itself and so unnecessary to use the word slavery as solely applicable for what happened. If anything trying to imply slavery is a word that should only be applied to treatment of blacks comes across to me as down playing it as some occurence that needs sole use of a word to be understood as unspeakable, and as though racism, including towards black people today, isn't that bad because it doesn't compare to black slavery.
HItler didn't murder as many black, gay, disabled etc as he did Jews. That doesn't mean morally the White homosexuals or white disabled were subject to white privilege in nazi Europe. You could perhaps have the opportunity in some cases to hide homosexuality or mild disability, but that was it, being white in itself gained no privilege if you couldn't disguise what hitler viewed as imperfections.