To think we are more divided by class, than race.

[WendyLooes]

I keep hearing the phase white privilege and can't understand it. I live in the North of England and some of the communities up hear are 99% white and living in poverty.

I understand that in many parts of London minority communities are also in poverty. I think that these people are bot victims of classism in modern Britain.

I once heard a story about Tudor Britain, London had a small black community which was protected by the English peasants.

This is not to say racism is not still a problem, however I believe classism is much more of an issue then racism.

I reject terms like white privilege because I think we need to make a bigger deal of class privilege. I honestly believe very few people are racist. The idiots that I have come across are reading (insert right wing paper) and doing exactly what the upper classes love a divided working class.

So aibu to think terms like white privilege keep us divided. The same as the right wing press. They both cause resentment.

[WendyLooes]

Buffy - Racism has a devastating effect on peoples lives. I agree with your last sentence.

[Justanotherlurker]

I think white privilege is a very real and valuable concept, however it suffers from a kind of Euphemism treadmill problem. It was originally coined to be a term that would cover advantages white people had, without their consciously or actively discriminating against other people as opposed to active racism. Because it has been misunderstood and misused so heavily by the identity politics types, it has slowly become equated to racism; which sort of ruins the original point.

[Ubik1]

In terms of white negatives - what about 'Chavs' ?

In scotland they have 'Neds.' These young people have never been given anything. And they know it. Their life chances are extremely restricted. Due to class.

So yes there are negative white stereotypes and they are all to do with class and environment.

I just think when I read these debates (usually on comment is free) that white working class voices are curiously absent. I wonder whether that's because they no longer go to university or whether their 'privileged' perspectives are no longer given credence.

I don't know, talking shite again probably

[Ubik1]

Yes buffy

It's a silly op really and this thread will not end well.

[Blistory]

While we might have 'Neds', there is also a strong Asian community in Scotland that have also received nothing. The odds of either group beating poverty are against them but those who suffer from racism as well as poverty have worse odds.

It's pretty crappy all around but it's important to distinguish all of the factors as resources need to be distributed differently.

And we have a woman of mixed race telling us on this thread that racism was the one thing she could never overcome whereas poverty can, in some instances, be overcome. Shouldn't we listen to her lived experience ?

[mimishimmi]

YANBU. I think people prefer to mix within the same sort of class and give much less attention to race than claimed. I also do not understand the term 'white privilege'. In my experience, the majority are anything but privileged (I do live in Australia though and lots were ... um... sent out here against their will) and there are many from different ethnic backgrounds who come from a background of serious privilege in their orginal countries (servants, inherited houses, parents with very high status work/money). The white people from privileged backgrounds prefer to mix with them than with the average white person.

[DoMyBest]

Buffy, I agree with you (as does the OP): racism still exists (I have another example: when travelling on business with a black colleague, both of us in suits, she got pulled over at the Eurostar & searched and I didn't).
But I still think class is a bigger challenge.
Amongst our intake of young professionals in a big city firm, there was every colour, and we all hung out with each other, dated each other, etc. We'd all gone to the top unies, got top a training, and were now on top salaries. Regional accents had been ironed out (not saying they should be, just that they were) & we mostly dressed, looked & sounded the same. Again, a white person in this city firm was way more likely to date a colleague of a different skin colour than the white person selling the newspapers down the road.
I get what you're saying about being scared, as a non-white, about racist attacks and arrests - and that they're still happenning begs belief.
But I still think classism is more widespread - because it affects absolutely all colours - and therefore a challenge.
I'm just imagining a white working class man, with strong signs of being working class, trying to blag his way into a smart London gentleman's club like Boodles: they'd spot him a mile away, before his accent gave him away. A black man who dressed & sounded upper middle? Who no doubt went to a top private school & so did all his friends who are white/black/asian fellow members? Just the way he walked would tell the porter he belonged there, irrespective of his skin colour.

[Mumbehavingbadly]

White privilege is just being able to walk into a pub, shop, street, room and not have to think about whether people are going to stare, shout, spit, punch, shoot regardless of how rich or poor you are.

White privilege is going on holiday to France, Spain, italy, Greece ...anywhere really and not have to think about whether you're going to get your head kicked in regardless of whether you're backpacking on a euro a day or staying 5* and first class all the way.

White privilege and racism are linked but not the same. White privilege is a thing.

Poverty is another thing.

And poor white people still have white privilege even over richer black people. The richer black people may lead more comfortable lives in a material way but their daily existence is blighted by white privilege.

[DoMyBest]

No Buffy, I'd never suggest any 'isms' should be dismissed or ignored!
I just think that its regretful that when progress is made in some areas (more UK lawyers are apparently female than male, top private schools are much more ethnically diverse than a generation ago, gay mariage has been legalised, etc) classism is still deeply engrained in our society. And, unlike the other isms, it doesn't affect just one group of people (women/gays/ethnic minorities etc) but everyone. And I suspect its a problem that still hasn't been as clearly identified & studied as it should be.

[FrizzyPig]

I totally agree with the OP and I would say that poor, white (think Jeremy Kyle) people are sometimes treated even worse than their poor, ethnic minority neighbours.

Take for example the contentious 'baby mama' issue someone mentioned earlier- we have had the explanations and excuses for why there are many young, single parent black females. But those silly girls on Jeremy Kyle- well they're just stupid, right?

Poor white people are about the only group in society that we are 'allowed' to openly mock and discriminate against.

I'm not denying racism exists at all and I would say that most people make snapshot judgements all the time about what people wear, how they speak, the colour of their skin.

I grew up in one of the most deprived areas of London on a council estate. No matter how many degrees I have or how high I climb in my job- when I meet middle class white people, I am not and never will be accepted as one of 'them' because of the way I talk, the way I dress, the names I gave to my children etc.

I'm quite insulted by the term 'white privilege' especially because in the school I work in (and across school nationally) it is our working class white children that are under performing. These aren't necessarily your Pupil Premium children as you have to be on a very low income to receive that. These are the working poor. We don't have any extra funding for them. They aren't black (we can help them), they aren't children learning English as an additional language (there's a budget for them too), these are just poor white children. The ones who we know do less well than any other group. It's the parents fault these children are failing, apparently.

But they have white privilege so they should get a tutor or just work a bit harder. Right?

[Blistory]

No one is dismissing the effects of poverty or arguing that it doesn't need to be addressed but for poor, black children, the chances are that you can't address their poverty issues without also addressing the racism that they suffer from.

They have additional funding because they need the additional funding. It's about treating them equally but differently.

[FundamentalistQuaker]

You seem to think that people can only be disadvantaged by one thing at a time. Clerly that's not the case. For example:

All poor people are disadvantaged by the class privilege of 'the elite' for lack of a better term.
Then you can add disadvantage to women, especially poor women, from sexism.
You can add disadvantage to poor black women from racism.
Look up intersectionality.

Kind of all you white people not to deny that racism exists. Very bloody generous.

[Sansarya]

Please please could everyone read Buffy's post of 21:00 and Mumbehavingbadly's of 21:44. Both posts give a good definition and examples of what white privilege really is. Contrary to what many here seem to believe, it isn't anything to do with how much money you have.

[FundamentalistQuaker]

It is so inadequate a description of the reality of racism for people of colour, especially the poor, that it is almost a form of denial in itself.

[FrizzyPig]

I think the point I was trying to make, badly, was that because of the assumption of white privilege, some white people end up at a disadvantage.

That doesn't mean that I think racism isn't as bad as classism. More that they are interlinked and that accepting 'white privilege' for all white people is not fair in our British Society.

It's a completely different situation in America, I admit that. But here, in London where I am, I don't really think it's acceptable to talk of white privilege when its class that creates a much bigger divide.

[Ubik1]

Oh FgS FundamentalistQuaker

O think the term
'White privilege' is all a hierarchy of privilege with 'white' at the top and then some sort of arbitrary scale. I've never seen the scale though...

[Blistory]

Class may create a bigger divide in purely numerical terms but I would be surprised if it created a bigger divide in terms of damage and hurt.

If someone is disadvantaged in numerous areas, they have more hurdles to overcome than someone else. That's damaging and we have a responsibility to listen when we're told what those hurdles and barriers are rather than focussing on one 'ism' because it suits our own experience.