To think we are more divided by class, than race.

[WendyLooes]

I keep hearing the phase white privilege and can't understand it. I live in the North of England and some of the communities up hear are 99% white and living in poverty.

I understand that in many parts of London minority communities are also in poverty. I think that these people are bot victims of classism in modern Britain.

I once heard a story about Tudor Britain, London had a small black community which was protected by the English peasants.

This is not to say racism is not still a problem, however I believe classism is much more of an issue then racism.

I reject terms like white privilege because I think we need to make a bigger deal of class privilege. I honestly believe very few people are racist. The idiots that I have come across are reading (insert right wing paper) and doing exactly what the upper classes love a divided working class.

So aibu to think terms like white privilege keep us divided. The same as the right wing press. They both cause resentment.

[trackies]

I am brown from middle class background. DH is white and had 'poor parents'. He's doing slightly better than me career wise. When he started seeing me he also thought very few people were racist, until he witnessed me being on the receiving end of it. He pointed out that some white people talk to me or treat me in a way that they wouldn't with him or his white ex's. Can sometimes be very subtle but it is there. Sometimes very obvious. Affects everything, but I don't dwell on it. I think classism and racism both exist but a lot easier for DH to conceal his parents background/class. I can't do anything about my skin colour.

[fakenamefornow]

I wonder if one factor is also that ballet, opera and Shakespeare are all classically 'white' culture, certainly the cast did not reflect the very white, middle class audience, although as mentioned this is Devon so it is predominantly white. I suspect the audience in London would have been very white and middle class as well though. Culture does (to a point) self segregate along race and class lines. I've been the only white person at hip-hop and rap events before and been told by a few there that I don't belong and shouldn't be there. It's a shame really because ballet is brilliant and needs a wider audience, as is rap, but I think they are seen by many as not our type of thing, 'our' as in our race/class, not 'mine' as an individual.

[FuzzyWizard]

That's really interesting. The documentary looked at some kind of youth world championships and the girl (she was an American adopted from Sierra Leone I think) was one of just a handful of black girls there out of thousands. A number of the ballet experts suggested that black female dancers tend to be too muscular. It did seem to be less of an issue for boys although the film didn't explicitly look at any black boys as far as I recall. There was most definitely an undercurrent that suggested that black girls were somehow less feminine than girls of other races. There were lots of non-white participants (especially East Asian) but very few black girls at all. Her mum said that it was all the flesh coloured mesh that caused problems. She was buying costumes, cutting away all the meshing and then replacing it with an appropriate colour. Looked like a nightmare to be honest. I'm really glad to hear that you saw black ballet dancers though... That girl's story has really stayed with me since I watched that film. She really did seem to live and breathe ballet and seemed to be up against the odds.

[fakenamefornow]

Oh, it was quite a small cast in the opera as well.

[fakenamefornow]

. There was a black ballet dancer-her white mum spent hours hand making her ballet costumes because buying them was so difficult... Flesh-coloured always seems to mean white-flesh-coloured

As an aside, I live in Devon (very white) I've taken my daughter to the theatre a few times recently, we've seen Romeo and Juliet, Antigone, a ballet and an opera. Romeo and Juliet were both black actors, Antigone was played by a black actress, about 40% of the cast in the ballet (actually a crossover between ballet and modern) were non white and just one male singer in the opera (not lead) was black. I don't think any of them we're specialist black companies, although I could be wrong and I'm sure it's not typical (although I hadn't been to the theatre in years). I don't want to paint this as 'see everything's fine', I know it's not, I just wanted to share some good news

[Lurkedforever1]

Best not to hijack the thread further responding to that

[GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter]

Lurkerforever1 Probably best to leave it there, I agree. Just to reiterate in case you are having difficulty understanding me: Nowhere have I said that the Irish were not mistreated by the British. Just that using the word 'slavery' to describe it is emotive, inaccurate, and ill-informed.

I understand the subject very well as it happens (I've just written an article about it, actually!) but hey, what does archival research and immersion in the secondary literature compare to 'family stories'?

[INickedAName]

It's all very well saying concentrate on class but it assumes that the classism that white British working class people experience is the same as the classism experienced by working class black, Asian, Polish, traveller, Chinese people experience... It isn't.

Totally agree.

A white working class family will have different experiences as a non white working class family. Even living in the same area. I

Saying to only focus on class, is assuming that being working class is the same no matter what. It's not. It's really not. And if you look, I mean really look, you can see it everywhere. Suggesting to concentrate on class and not race is white privilege in itself, because it's assuming every working class experience is more or less the same. I feel uncomfortable with that.

[Lurkedforever1]

George, I'm not sure whether you are unable to grasp my point due to the fact you instantly jumped to the wrong conclusion about me, or whether you just don't understand both the subject or my reasoning. Either way I don't feel it gains anything either for myself or the thread in general to continue labouring to explain to you. Still, when dd falls foul of white privilege I'll let her know it's only one part of her heritage, despite both being genetically responsible for her make up, that you deem worthy of being down to historical treatment from the English. Although 'your colour and racial identity and cultural history is only an issue from the genes on one side' isn't something I plan on saying to pander to your misunderstanding.

Back on topic, I wonder if class divides are in part a key to race divides. Racism isn't the same issue at the top end as the bottom. Even at independent school level the racial implications of not being white are generally less than at a deprived inner city state school. And if you're educated and comfortably off etc it's a lot easier to be understanding about eg Somalians being given a council house than if you're either uneducated or living in a shelter yourself.

[LegoComplex]

I think it's an interesting subject to explore, and perhaps class is more dividing to some groups of people than race, BUT that isn't to say that white privelage exists and racism is very much alive and well.

[Boofy27]

Ubik1, I love this explanation of what it means:

[http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/]

[FuzzyWizard]

White privilege doesn't mean what some people think it means. It doesn't mean you are "privileged" as such. White privilege describes the structural advantages that being white gives you. I saw a documentary about ballet once... There was a black ballet dancer-her white mum spent hours hand making her ballet costumes because buying them was so difficult... Flesh-coloured always seems to mean white-flesh-coloured. A PP mentioned buying foundation. Knowing that people won't use you as a representative of your race every time you do something positive or negative. White mothers of teenage boys will likely have very different worries and anxieties to black mothers of teenage boys. All examples of white privilege.

It's all very well saying concentrate on class but it assumes that the classism that white British working class people experience is the same as the classism experienced by working class black, Asian, Polish, traveller, Chinese people experience... It isn't.

[GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter]

And what FuzzyWizard said.

[GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter]

Your rambling post is difficult to follow, but this stood out:

Black slavery has more than enough horrors without needing the word 'slavery' to be only applicable to black slavery. It was bad enough itself and so unnecessary to use the word slavery as solely applicable for what happened. If anything trying to imply slavery is a word that should only be applied to treatment of blacks comes across to me as down playing it as some occurence that needs sole use of a word to be understood as unspeakable, and as though racism, including towards black people today, isn't that bad because it doesn't compare to black slavery.

It's quite simple. Slavery should only be used to describe, you know, actual slavery. There was some slavery in India under the British. There was not slavery in Ireland.

Nowhere have I said that the Irish were not mistreated by the British. Just that using the word 'slavery' to describe it is emotive, inaccurate, and ill-informed.

[Lurkedforever1]

Again, it's not necessary for treatment of a race to be equal to black slavery to be horrific. Neither do I need a patronising lecture on what Catholic emancipation was. It's just very telling that word was used at the time and went down in the biased English history. The natives of India under the British raj weren't subject to exactly the same treatment as black slavery either. It doesn't mean they weren't subject to disgusting treatment with racial repercussions that still go on today. Nor were Indians packed wholesale into ships and transported. Doesn't mean they didn't suffer a form of slavery under British rule. Same for many other races, including the irish Catholics. Or indeed forms of slavery under any other white powerful rule. Being a pre revolution White Russian serf had no more white privilege than being a native born non white in a british colony.
Black slavery has more than enough horrors without needing the word 'slavery' to be only applicable to black slavery. It was bad enough itself and so unnecessary to use the word slavery as solely applicable for what happened. If anything trying to imply slavery is a word that should only be applied to treatment of blacks comes across to me as down playing it as some occurence that needs sole use of a word to be understood as unspeakable, and as though racism, including towards black people today, isn't that bad because it doesn't compare to black slavery.
HItler didn't murder as many black, gay, disabled etc as he did Jews. That doesn't mean morally the White homosexuals or white disabled were subject to white privilege in nazi Europe. You could perhaps have the opportunity in some cases to hide homosexuality or mild disability, but that was it, being white in itself gained no privilege if you couldn't disguise what hitler viewed as imperfections.

[Ubik1]

But what does 'white privilege' mean? In a practical sense?

You can argue til the cows come home about who is/was/will be more oppressed than another group but how does it help anything?

At least by focusing on class there are real things you can do about it (not that the government is interested in helping WC folk of any colour or creed) which make a real difference for everyone.
You can make sure there is a safety net, you can put money in people's pockets, you can house them and keep them warm. By class these things are universally applied. It's not down to some scale of privilege.

[FuzzyWizard]

INicked- that's a really good everyday example.

[INickedAName]

This blog has some good examples of daily examples of white privilege.

white privilege

I'll admit that I didn't understand white privilege a while back. I'd read that I was privileged by being white, and took that to mean I had a good life, which wasn't true, we were dirt poor and at some points I hated life. I used to get angry at calling that being classed as a privilege. But then I looked outside my own lived experience, and considered others, and it's easy to ignore or not see issues that don't effect you.

I can walk into any cosmetic shop in my town have a choice of many foundations that will suit my skin, my black friend can't, because not one shop in our town stocks any. So she has to take the bus to the next town and hope that they stock it there, if she's lucky they will have a choice of two or three shades, (that usually cost more than mine too) compared to dozens and dozens of shades for my skin. In my ignorance I once moaned about too much choice, I simply hadn't thought anyone else could have trouble buying foundation. That's an example of white privilege.

[FuzzyWizard]

Actually I think Irish Catholics are an excellent example of white privilege. The British treated Irish Catholics appallingly, they were legally discriminated against, denied basic rights, treated violently. But- however bad it got it never once occurred to the British to buy and sell their children, pack them naked into ship galleys and transport them across the Atlantic. Even though the British were doing exactly the same thing to Africans at the same time... That's white privilege. It doesn't meant that they were "privileged" in the sense of having all the advantages in life that rich white Protestants had. Just that there were some horrors that they were spared primarily because they were white.

[GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter]

Do you even know what Catholic Emancipation was? Clearly not, if you're likening it IN ANY WAY to slavery. The penal laws WERE NOT slavery. You perhaps are getting confused by the word 'Emancipation' - it referred to full voting rights (such as they existed) being extended to Catholics. Not personal liberty from enslavement.

The structural violence of the British presence in Ireland shouldn't be glossed over, of course, but using the analogy of slavery to describe British actions in Ireland is inaccurate and offensive.

PS Irish emigrants were extremely and violently racist towards African-Americans in the United States. They had white privilege there aplenty.

[Lurkedforever1]

george I disagree. It's perfectly possible to see the full horror of black slavery, without denying that irish catholics from an historical view aren't subject to the white privilege their skin colour implies. It's not necessary to compare the English treatment of Irish Catholics to black slavery to admit it was disgusting. Treatment of a race or religion doesn't need to be as bad as black slavery or the holocaust etc to be horrific in itself. My point is that while the English trot out the line 'we as a nation didn't have black slavery, aren't we nice', morally they were no better because of their treatment of irish Catholics. Not forgetting British involvement in black slavery from the cotton industry. Because some racist loons have taken what happened in Ireland and twisted it (hence you jumping to the conclusion I was following that train of thought) it doesn't follow that we should then deny centuries of abuse to the Irish just incase someone leaps to the conclusion we're right wing racists. Modern white slavery is still called slavery, without the phrase being seen as a racist denial of black slavery, so it's also possible to apply the word to the English treatment of the Irish without it being taken as an equal comparison. It didn't need to be as bad as black slavery to still be a form of slavery. There is a good reason for a chunk of history about Catholic emancipation. A word that isn't applicable if you're already free.
We admit that racial repercussions still felt today stem in the main from English colonisation and the historical abuse of other races, just because Ireland came under the heading of Britain and the inhabitants were white doesn't make it any less so.
The fact Irish travellers are the last remaining group it's socially acceptable to be overtly racist towards in Britain says quite a lot. Maybe they are a red herring in the correct use of the term 'white privilege' but they no more have white privilege than any non white does.
By horses mouth I mean first hand accounts, and/or family histories, and not just from one small group or area. The Ira didn't start as a bunch of terrorists planting bombs, it's original purpose before being hijacked for terrorism was normal people wanting equal rights.

[GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter]

Lurkedforever1, now that you know of the sort of intellectual bedfellows that are making similar arguments to you, perhaps it might give you pause? Did you read the link I posted?

a hell of a lot of my irish knowledge has always come straight from the horses mouth. So don't tell me it's simplistic or wrong

Horse's mouth? What do you mean by that?

[Lurkedforever1]

George I didn't get it from the Internet. The internet wasn't around at the time. Did read plenty of books, but a hell of a lot of my irish knowledge has always come straight from the horses mouth. So don't tell me it's simplistic or wrong. And you discredit yourself, not me by trying to imply I'm using it to undermine black slavery. Although I find it offensive as fuck that you are trying to make out I'm comparing the two. I haven't got a clue what racist sites are using it for that purpose, as my irish knowledge came long before the web. Educate yourself before you start making derogatory comments that just go to show how little you know.

[Casimir]

I see no solution to this. 'Same as it ever was'. Annoying to me is the privileged ones -race, financial, networked whatever - pretend they achieve because of their hard work and talent only, and we go along with it. Everyone I meet in this country who is officially regarded as successful, scrape the surface, and tada, privileged. Everyone. So I really have no respect for them.

[Bambambini]

Ubik - i grew up in a wc council estate town in the west of scotland. There was practically no non white folk. You can have a bunch of dirt poor folk of the same race and still have some kind of privilege going on. For me growing up it was the catholic/ protestant thing with protestants having more privelege so i can completely accept the concept of white privilege and that poor black folk have just that something extra to deal with that white folk dont. It's just that in a community of almost all white folk - they don't really need to think of race matters as it doesn't affect them.