To think we are more divided by class, than race.

[WendyLooes]

I keep hearing the phase white privilege and can't understand it. I live in the North of England and some of the communities up hear are 99% white and living in poverty.

I understand that in many parts of London minority communities are also in poverty. I think that these people are bot victims of classism in modern Britain.

I once heard a story about Tudor Britain, London had a small black community which was protected by the English peasants.

This is not to say racism is not still a problem, however I believe classism is much more of an issue then racism.

I reject terms like white privilege because I think we need to make a bigger deal of class privilege. I honestly believe very few people are racist. The idiots that I have come across are reading (insert right wing paper) and doing exactly what the upper classes love a divided working class.

So aibu to think terms like white privilege keep us divided. The same as the right wing press. They both cause resentment.

[GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter]

Your rambling post is difficult to follow, but this stood out:

Black slavery has more than enough horrors without needing the word 'slavery' to be only applicable to black slavery. It was bad enough itself and so unnecessary to use the word slavery as solely applicable for what happened. If anything trying to imply slavery is a word that should only be applied to treatment of blacks comes across to me as down playing it as some occurence that needs sole use of a word to be understood as unspeakable, and as though racism, including towards black people today, isn't that bad because it doesn't compare to black slavery.

It's quite simple. Slavery should only be used to describe, you know, actual slavery. There was some slavery in India under the British. There was not slavery in Ireland.

Nowhere have I said that the Irish were not mistreated by the British. Just that using the word 'slavery' to describe it is emotive, inaccurate, and ill-informed.

[GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter]

And what FuzzyWizard said.

[FuzzyWizard]

White privilege doesn't mean what some people think it means. It doesn't mean you are "privileged" as such. White privilege describes the structural advantages that being white gives you. I saw a documentary about ballet once... There was a black ballet dancer-her white mum spent hours hand making her ballet costumes because buying them was so difficult... Flesh-coloured always seems to mean white-flesh-coloured. A PP mentioned buying foundation. Knowing that people won't use you as a representative of your race every time you do something positive or negative. White mothers of teenage boys will likely have very different worries and anxieties to black mothers of teenage boys. All examples of white privilege.

It's all very well saying concentrate on class but it assumes that the classism that white British working class people experience is the same as the classism experienced by working class black, Asian, Polish, traveller, Chinese people experience... It isn't.

[Boofy27]

Ubik1, I love this explanation of what it means:

[http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/]

[LegoComplex]

I think it's an interesting subject to explore, and perhaps class is more dividing to some groups of people than race, BUT that isn't to say that white privelage exists and racism is very much alive and well.

[Lurkedforever1]

George, I'm not sure whether you are unable to grasp my point due to the fact you instantly jumped to the wrong conclusion about me, or whether you just don't understand both the subject or my reasoning. Either way I don't feel it gains anything either for myself or the thread in general to continue labouring to explain to you. Still, when dd falls foul of white privilege I'll let her know it's only one part of her heritage, despite both being genetically responsible for her make up, that you deem worthy of being down to historical treatment from the English. Although 'your colour and racial identity and cultural history is only an issue from the genes on one side' isn't something I plan on saying to pander to your misunderstanding.

Back on topic, I wonder if class divides are in part a key to race divides. Racism isn't the same issue at the top end as the bottom. Even at independent school level the racial implications of not being white are generally less than at a deprived inner city state school. And if you're educated and comfortably off etc it's a lot easier to be understanding about eg Somalians being given a council house than if you're either uneducated or living in a shelter yourself.

[INickedAName]

It's all very well saying concentrate on class but it assumes that the classism that white British working class people experience is the same as the classism experienced by working class black, Asian, Polish, traveller, Chinese people experience... It isn't.

Totally agree.

A white working class family will have different experiences as a non white working class family. Even living in the same area. I

Saying to only focus on class, is assuming that being working class is the same no matter what. It's not. It's really not. And if you look, I mean really look, you can see it everywhere. Suggesting to concentrate on class and not race is white privilege in itself, because it's assuming every working class experience is more or less the same. I feel uncomfortable with that.

[GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter]

Lurkerforever1 Probably best to leave it there, I agree. Just to reiterate in case you are having difficulty understanding me: Nowhere have I said that the Irish were not mistreated by the British. Just that using the word 'slavery' to describe it is emotive, inaccurate, and ill-informed.

I understand the subject very well as it happens (I've just written an article about it, actually!) but hey, what does archival research and immersion in the secondary literature compare to 'family stories'?

[Lurkedforever1]

Best not to hijack the thread further responding to that

[fakenamefornow]

. There was a black ballet dancer-her white mum spent hours hand making her ballet costumes because buying them was so difficult... Flesh-coloured always seems to mean white-flesh-coloured

As an aside, I live in Devon (very white) I've taken my daughter to the theatre a few times recently, we've seen Romeo and Juliet, Antigone, a ballet and an opera. Romeo and Juliet were both black actors, Antigone was played by a black actress, about 40% of the cast in the ballet (actually a crossover between ballet and modern) were non white and just one male singer in the opera (not lead) was black. I don't think any of them we're specialist black companies, although I could be wrong and I'm sure it's not typical (although I hadn't been to the theatre in years). I don't want to paint this as 'see everything's fine', I know it's not, I just wanted to share some good news

[fakenamefornow]

Oh, it was quite a small cast in the opera as well.

[FuzzyWizard]

That's really interesting. The documentary looked at some kind of youth world championships and the girl (she was an American adopted from Sierra Leone I think) was one of just a handful of black girls there out of thousands. A number of the ballet experts suggested that black female dancers tend to be too muscular. It did seem to be less of an issue for boys although the film didn't explicitly look at any black boys as far as I recall. There was most definitely an undercurrent that suggested that black girls were somehow less feminine than girls of other races. There were lots of non-white participants (especially East Asian) but very few black girls at all. Her mum said that it was all the flesh coloured mesh that caused problems. She was buying costumes, cutting away all the meshing and then replacing it with an appropriate colour. Looked like a nightmare to be honest. I'm really glad to hear that you saw black ballet dancers though... That girl's story has really stayed with me since I watched that film. She really did seem to live and breathe ballet and seemed to be up against the odds.

[fakenamefornow]

I wonder if one factor is also that ballet, opera and Shakespeare are all classically 'white' culture, certainly the cast did not reflect the very white, middle class audience, although as mentioned this is Devon so it is predominantly white. I suspect the audience in London would have been very white and middle class as well though. Culture does (to a point) self segregate along race and class lines. I've been the only white person at hip-hop and rap events before and been told by a few there that I don't belong and shouldn't be there. It's a shame really because ballet is brilliant and needs a wider audience, as is rap, but I think they are seen by many as not our type of thing, 'our' as in our race/class, not 'mine' as an individual.

[trackies]

I am brown from middle class background. DH is white and had 'poor parents'. He's doing slightly better than me career wise. When he started seeing me he also thought very few people were racist, until he witnessed me being on the receiving end of it. He pointed out that some white people talk to me or treat me in a way that they wouldn't with him or his white ex's. Can sometimes be very subtle but it is there. Sometimes very obvious. Affects everything, but I don't dwell on it. I think classism and racism both exist but a lot easier for DH to conceal his parents background/class. I can't do anything about my skin colour.