To be fuming with DD's Guide leader?

[Classroomblues]

I am absolutely fuming right now. Dd2 has just got back from a camping holiday with her Guide group. She didn't look particularly great when I picked her up and it turns out she's been unwell with food poisoning and they didn't call me. What's upset me even more is it was caused by incredibly poor hygiene measures.
The cooked chicken yesterday. Dd2 apparently told the leader she isn't allowed to touch raw chicken at home and the leader said "well you're not at home now".

The hand washing was a BOWL of soapy water. Not even any actual soap or running water. Surely anyone knows this is not good hygiene?
Dd said their camp was so far from the toilet block that she had to crouch outside her tent in the middle of the night with an upset stomach etc. :(
She asked the leaders if they would call me this morning and they refused as we were collecting them this evening anyway. AIBU to be upset/ angry? I don't know if I'm more upset or angry right now.

Why does it sound like she's exaggerating? Because as a cub leader its not what you would do? Well there not some sort of different species. There humans who can make mistakes, and can be utter twats.
Like I said on these types of threads the brownie/guides/scout leaders are never at fault.
There's no chance at all there's one leader somewhere who is overly harsh on children?

It sounds like she is exaggerating because not being able to get to the toilet because of diarrhoea means it is serious. That is very unlikely to disappear once home, and very likely to have been repeated during the day.
It just doesn't add up.

Having stayed in that close proximity with at least 20 other people. All sleeping in the same tents. Coughing and sneezing out millions of germs and probably not all washing their hands between going to the loo touching all kinds of surfaces... its a safe bet that's how she got sick not the food.

By not letting you child handle raw meat at home you really are not helping in situations like this, possibly contributing to it. She went into that situation completely blinkered. My 7yo knows how to handle produce safely and how important it is to wash hands and chopping boards between prepping different foods. Its a bloody life skill!

The washing set up was adequate. Not sure what else you expect on a camp tbh. Soapy water will do the job for washing hands even after handling raw meat. I'm also pretty sure a bowl of soapy water would have been used to clean the knives and boards the raw chicken touched.... anyway, Next time tell your DD to excuse herself to go to the toilet block to wash them again if you think its such a problem.

You cannot blame the leaders. Raise a concern if you are really worried but to be fuming about it? what proof do you have it was the food or the chicken that caused the illness unless every other child fell ill at the same time and considering the group came back at the same time that doesn't seem to be the case.

And not rushing to call you? I'd not be angry unless it involved a trip to A&E. They would have had a first aider on camp. I'd be entirely satisfied they handled it the way they did. She was safe and looked after with someone trained to assess and handle minor illness and injury.

Also if a child had that serious diarrhoea, every child in camp would have been talking about it and telling the leaders.

if i was the leader i would have called you

you would be welcome to have a child who can barely get out of the tent before needing to release an upset stomach in your car for the drive home rather than in my car

I either get it out with a fork or if I do need to touch it, I wear disposable gloves and still wash my hands after. Call me crazy I don't care but I don't enjoy touching raw meat

So you're teaching your daughter to mimic your neurosis, rather than teaching her to learn to deal with meat sensibly, safely & hygienically.

YABU for that.

And I echo what Becles says. Guides are being asked to learn to be self-sufficient and act with sense and initiative. "Too far" to walk to the toilet block? Gosh when I camped as a Guide, we dug our own latrine trench, and in doing so, learnt about hygiene and safety and self-reliance.

If she's a Guide, she must be at least 12. That's old enough to start learning to cope.

another unless your a qualified Dr it's not really down to your personal opinion if a child is saying they are ill or not. If a child is demonstrating a bad stomach during the night and asking to go home she should have been allowed to phone her parents. If a few childen get disturbed sleep it's not going to ruin the whole trip is it? It would have taken minuites to gather her stuff. But it wasn't in the night was it? It was in the morning when there was no reason not to allow her. Apart from one leaders opinion.

I'm not surprised there are posters pulling this childs motives apart because sadly that's what happens on here. Posters lose sight these are actually kids. People are making out the child is a liar when they have never even met her

upthechimney when ive had the shits ive barely made it to the down stair toilets. Do yeah trekking across camp might have been a bit much and we are talking about a child here

I just don't get the nasty responses to a child who was ill and wanted to go home, fuck the chicken

Not a nasty response to a child, but a frustrated answer to a diva parent projecting her own neuroses onto an innocent child, and slagging off amazing volunteer women in the process.

• Too far" to walk to the toilet block? Gosh when I camped as a Guide, we dug our own latrine trench, and in doing so, learnt about hygiene and safety and self-reliance

That's nasty . She was a child that had the runs. Regardless what you think of her mother.

Also - just because people work with kids or volunteer doesn't make them amazing. i coach sports and there are adults who volunteer and who get paid who can still be arses

Also - just because people work with kids or volunteer doesn't make them amazing. i coach sports and there are adults who volunteer and who get paid who can still be arses

Of course, that's true, there are idiots in all walks of life.

But would a leader really refuse to call a child's parents just to be mean, after the child has been up all night with food poisoning? Or is it more likely that the child said that they feel a bit poorly, and the leader said to see how they are in a little while?

Some of the hurtful comments on this thread have upset me and I am not planning to post again on this thread.
Yes I'll admit that maybe I was more upset and cross last night than I needed to be but I find it hard to believe that if you were to pick your child up in the same situation your first response wouldn't be something similar.
I think her guide leaders are great generally and did not intend this to a bashing volunteers thread in any way whatsoever. It was merely the way chicken we handled that bugged me and the fact that I wasn't called. Thanks to the guide leaders who came on and added some perspective... I can see how a child saying she was ill and asking to go home on pack up day might be perceived as not wanting to muck in (which is not the case at all with my dd but can understand for leaders who don't know her very well they might have thought that).

There is no way i would handle raw chicken without gloves unless there was lots of soap and actual running water - not just a bowl. If this is acceptable food hygiene as one poster said then fair enough but I still think It's awful. I accept that the way I handle chicken is OTT but that's all I've ever known.

Thanks to anyone who posted helpful responses. :)

Its such a strange time when children are automatically accused of lying when an adult is involved.

I've been on the other side of this.
I'm a guide leader and I run large camps.
Last year the day after a camp I had a "fuming" parent as her dd was sick and accused me of poisoning her dad because I'd "made" her touch uncooked chicken. She was threatening me and girl guiding with all kinds of lawsuits.
Turned out to be viral- she'd been incubating it for days.

I understand you are upset your Dd is sick but please don't "fume" at your guide leader because of your own hang ups before you get all the facts

Her dd obviously not her dad! My witchcraft does not extend to poisoning dads

Sadly our guides don't seem to camp so DD2 hasn't had the experience although they have a new guide leader so maybe next year...

Join Scouts. Problem solved...

But you said your DD didn't look that great when you picked her up, not that she was in a terrible state and deathly ill, which your latest post implies.
If I picked up a child who told me she'd had a bit if an upset tummy but had been okay ever since I'd think the leaders had done the right thing. If my child had been sick ever since and had uncontrollable diahorrea, was pale and clammy, then I would be fuming that they hadn't called me.

Chicken-gate: child says "I'm not allowed to touch chicken at home". Leader responds that she isn't at home, she's at camp and one of the things about camp is to learn to do new things. That seems perfectly normal and sane, especially as there were washing facilities.

When I helped at a Beaver Camp in my 20s, it was well before the advent of mobile phones . So if there had been a problem, someone would have had to go either go to the nearest house or find a phone box or drive back to our own village (iirc, we were in a field about 15 minutes away from the village) .

Definitely no running water - or even chemical loos. We dug a latrine.

Amazingly, we all survived!

So if that's how you were brought up, your mum is also batshit about handling raw chicken? How did the human race ever survive before rubber gloves were invented?

Red toothbrush -unless you happen to be in our town, where you can't find a scout leader for love nor money, so two dads sit in the hall with them and play games, and it's the guides that camp. Every unit is different, and guides can do just as much camping and outdoors stuff as scouts. In other places I have volunteered, it is exactly the same adults running both (due to the general lack of volunteers) so we run exactly the same camps side by side. No difference whatsoever. The guides went fishing, and the scouts did landscape painting. All interchangeable.

I would encourage the mums who moan about the lack of camping in the guiding units to volunteer and increase the likelihood, to benefit all of the kids - switching sections is fine, but is a bit of a cop out really. Improving the provision that is available benefits everyone - running off to a perceived better option just further diminishes a unit that could really benefit from your presence and open up other doors of opportunity for a much wider group of kids. I suppose that is the difference between speaking as a volunteer and speaking as a parent who views it as an opt-in resource that other people run, though. I know we are always looking for people who are willing to put in the hours - sadly there aren't many around, so it's pretty poor to moan at the people who are giving up their time, presumably when you have the knowledge required to make a difference.

If it's all the same to the op though, I don't really want a leader who is going to teach girls that rubber gloves and forks are required to prepare chicken. ours make their own meat balls by getting their hands in and squishing the pork, turkey, or beef with the rest of the ingredients. They love it.

Yeah, I'm from the latrine digging years too.

Although, lol, when I was a guide (back in the dark ages) there was such a thing as the patrol camp permit, where you could take your patrol out on your own, no leaders at all, dig your own lats, build your own fire and cook I remember my test weekend to this day. I do often look at the guides in our district and feel a bit sorry that they aren't given the same opportunities for self-reliance etc. does it still exist, even in senior section?

Text fan, the difference is that you acknowledge you have issues with possible food contamination. You aren't trying to pass off refusing to touch raw chicken as in any way normal behaviour.

all this paranoia about raw chicken is just setting up the next generation to be equally ignorant and give them issues about food.

Just wash your hands and there isn't a problem!

Madwoman
The patrol permit still exist. Girls have to have 2 challenge badges and been to at least 2 residentals (as a guide to complete it). So normally are about 14/15 when they do it. I inherited an amazing unit and up till this year (and this is kind of my fault) we have had girls complete it.
As leaders we normally camp in the pitch/ field next to the girls just to check up what they are up to. Have been doing patrol permit camps since 2007 and never had to intervene.
As others have said guide/ scout/BB/GB leaders can be luck of the draw you can get some that do tones, some that should not be doing it and some that have lost the love (don't have the time and maybe should take a break but often just can, for what ever reason). As long as the children have a enjoy what they are doing that is the main thing!

Yabu to not allow her to touch raw chicken. Teach her to handle it safely.

I am a guide leader, we have a bowl of water and disinfectant for hand washing but to a child it may well look like soapy water. I've just been to a large scale camp where every participant and leader was given personal alcohol hand wash and there was sanitiser in toilets and anywhere people would be handling or eating food. If you are so fussy, why didn't you send her with anti bac hand gel?

If every other child and adult is fine then I highly doubt food poisoning. Especislly at camp. YABU to assume this eithout more facts.

Exactly how far away are the toilets? A walk certainly, further than at home, definitely. But really so bad that a presumably otherwise healthy guide age girl couldn't make it? I have to say I find it hard to believe.

If she was really that ill they would've called you, because breaking camp is difficult enough without worrying about cleaning up and looking after a seriously ill child. Or they were enough distance away that by the time you arrived it wouldn't have made a difference anyway. Again, only on the large scale camp, not normal guide camp, but any child with d&v was sent home asap. Any that physically couldn't (international visitors) were quarantined. We do take these things seriously you know!

Yabu to be in such a state without knowing the full story. Do not go in and rage at volunteers. Ask them CALMLY what their version of events is, as your dd has come home ill and upset. Do not bring dd along to this questioning. And fgs teach her how to handle food safely and wash her hands!!! The camp I attended had 7000 people and the only cases of d&v at the last three times have been viral ie. Precious baby not washing hands properly