To be fuming with DD's Guide leader?

[Classroomblues]

I am absolutely fuming right now. Dd2 has just got back from a camping holiday with her Guide group. She didn't look particularly great when I picked her up and it turns out she's been unwell with food poisoning and they didn't call me. What's upset me even more is it was caused by incredibly poor hygiene measures.
The cooked chicken yesterday. Dd2 apparently told the leader she isn't allowed to touch raw chicken at home and the leader said "well you're not at home now".

The hand washing was a BOWL of soapy water. Not even any actual soap or running water. Surely anyone knows this is not good hygiene?
Dd said their camp was so far from the toilet block that she had to crouch outside her tent in the middle of the night with an upset stomach etc. :(
She asked the leaders if they would call me this morning and they refused as we were collecting them this evening anyway. AIBU to be upset/ angry? I don't know if I'm more upset or angry right now.

Makes me nostalgic for my days in the Guides. I think we were a tougher generation. Captain would book a farmer's field, with one tap usually. We had Elsan loos and a fire with a grate over the top to put the dixies on.
We would have been unlikely to have chicken because of the storage problems, and the cost. I think we had deliveries from local shops. I remember being made to cycle to the village on my own because they hadn't sent enough sausages, and of course the only way to phone them up was to use a phone box, which was in said village.
I camped quite a few times and my mother was the MO (medical officer). Surprisingly I can only remember one girl being sent home sick. If people were ill (which wasn't often) they spent the night on the camp bed in the medical tent.
But despite the fact that by modern standards our camps would have been condemned they were really enjoyable.
But as to the question of how to make girls go to sleep when they are excitable, Captain made sure we were exhausted- lots of wood patrols, water patrols, general running about. Then she gave us a period of time when we were allowed to talk and then it was Taps and lights out- and woe betide you if you kept others awake after that.
Happy days.

If she shat outside the tent, did she let the leaders know?

If not it would have been picked up in the site inspection after striking camp and should have been mentioned when you picked her up.

What was done with the waste the next morning? Did anyone step in it?

These 'fuming' complaints are also a reason why teachers are increasingly hesitant about taking out trips. It is lovely when parents say thanks.

After reading our new trips policy last year a number of staff have refused to do trips so the leadership team coerce junior staff to run trips instead.

I ran a Brownie group once and I loved it and would still be doing it if it was not for the sniping from some mothers. It was a popular group with a waiting list and I have some lovely helpers from the local secondary school. I just could not cope with some of the pettiness.

I gave a couple of the helicopter mums a piece of my mind when they said it was my fault the pack closed as no one wanted to take responsibility. Since they moaned in their passive aggressive ways in Costa I gave them the full six barrels of it was their 'my daughter first' attitudes, late pick ups, late sub payments, wanting more sleepover activities, complaining about other girls, and moaning about the meeting lengths being too short that ruined their childcare arrangements whilst they wanted to go to the gym. So sorry you snotty stuck up cows! Take some responsibility and spend some time getting to know your daughters.

They was akin to a version Housewives of Surrey.

Wow that felt good

I've been a leader for years and would find it very hard to believe that a child was 'squatting outside their tent' in the middle of the night - in my experience very few leaders actually get to sleep at camp unofortunately and you would certainly hear any child getting out of their tent.

Sometimes I miss my camping days with Cubs but then threads like this make me realise how glad I'm no longer involved - the funniest thing I remember was on washing up duty when one child was horrified to be expected to wash up - he had never, ever experienced washing up by hand before .

Totally agree with Larry - we are probably from the same era - a field with a cold tap, elsen toilet and make your own fires for cooking. And this was all years before mobile phones, we all coped you know. .

I have less rules and training to take students away as a teacher than I do as a Guide Leader.

For my teaching trips I had to attend a half day training where I was talked at which included all ages from 5-18 year olds. Nothing practical

For my Guide trips I have had to be assessed for 3 different age groups, for indoor and outdoor accommodation, for groups more than 50 people and for taking groups abroad. All assessed in a practical manner. I also have much stricter adult to child ratio's

As others have said if the daughter didn't make her illness clear it may well have been perceived as a get out of clearing up tactic -I am the guider who makes a patrol sit down and wait if we have a sudden rush of 'I need the loo' when the washing up is on the cards!

This thread makes me wonder why some of us bother. The handwashing set up sounds perfectly adequate - as the caterer I would have probably sent all girls to the loos to wash hands when all raw meat was done as a precaution but not necessary and wouldn't if they were a mega trek.

Hope your daughter is feeling better.

Re Scout and Camjam - is it worth toughing it out and having a private word with the leaders about his reluctance - let them know you could collect on Wednesday but you rather he was unaware of this. We often get emails from parents along these lines and have never had a girl bail once into it all.

I have sent one guide home from camp in 20 years with a broken wrist - pure accident and parents tried to persuade her to stay!!!

Don't be upset and scarper OP. Answer some of the questions, please ,esp, how is DD now? Did others have upset tummies. Did no-one really help her when being ill outside the tent? What happened to the resulting mess? ...

I don't want DD in scouts - she was offered a place but I turned it down as she would have been in with a sibling the whole time she was there and actually it suits her personality to be in a group on her own.

I volunteer as a beaver and cub section assistant. I don't have time to do guides as well!

This doesn't sound like food poisoning from chicken though. It typically take over 12 hours to show symptoms.
Mine came on nearly between 18 hours and 24 hours the second time.
There are a lot of horrible virus going around though.
I have unfortunately had salmonella poisoning twice.
If your dd had it op you would know it, you would have been called.
I thought i was dying, both times.
My stomach was on fire.
D&v . I couldn't even keep water down. I ended up on medication i was so ill. I couldn't get out of bed for a week.
I was scared to eat

Hilarious to suggest they "allowed" her to crap outside her tent.
Exactly what were the Guide leaders supposed to do - stand on duty all night with a potty in one hand "just in case"? The Guiding Poo Control equivalent of Mrs Doyle?

OP has not clarified if her DD had such a case of the runs that she had to go there and then or if she just didn't want to go to the toilet block. Nor has she said if there were any other instances of her DD being ill or if this was a one-off. All we know is that several hours later she "didn't look particularly great" which does not sound like a child who is actually ill.

Given the OTT attitude towards handling food, it strongly suggests it was a one-off and an over protective mother who was annoyed about her daughter having to do a perfectly normal activity such as food preparation at Guide Camp. The Leader must have smiled inwardly when told DD was not allowed to handle chicken at home and her response of "but you're not at hone" was spot-on.

As said above, some parents really Rent suited to Scouting/Guiding.

I do hope OP and her DD thanked the Leaders for all their work despite the unfortunate incident of the poo in the night. And got a bunch of flowers for the poor person who had to clear up the mess.

I was a brown owl once. I ran a pack holiday where a girl became ill. Lots of vomiting etc. Rang the parents to collect her but they had used the opportunity to drink plenty of alcohol so were unable to! We quarantined her and she had excellent nursing care until the next morning!

Having been a guide leader at a bazillion camps.

1. we have night lats, for the girls
2. they know where to come and get help, and do, we often get woken up at 3am because of "I can't sleep" "I feel sick" "I miss mum" etc
3. the people who are saying "look after the kids better" feel free to cone and show us how its done!
4. leaders know when to send girls home
5. what do you mean OP when she was ill outside the tent, did she poo outside the tent???

Hackman
It could be both ie a psychological response to handling chicken

That would be really sad, bruffin . Giving your child a phobia because you have one yourself, plus blaming others and refusing to admit you have an issue.

I'm extremely claustrophobic, to the extent I wake up screaming if the bad clothes are over my face. I don't try to pretend this is normal behaviour because it isn't. I know I have a problem and have worked so I can manage small spaces like lifts. Just as long as they don't break down I'm okay in them

former scout leader here -

There are many reasons why kids get upset tums on camp....in my experience, its often because of the change in diet - to one where they are expected to eat veggies and are not loading themselves up on sweet processed crap. We aim for 5 a day - thats a shock to the system for lots of kids who are fussy eaters. We have a lot of fussy kids who only eat M&S bread, white food, pasta and cheese, no mince, nuggets etc...

And like others above, I left scouting because of the attitude of entitled parents - one particular set decided they would not talk to me. AT all. After they encouraged their (non scout) child to break a safety rule during a scout activity that this child gatecrashed, and I shouted at him.

So I was OK to watch their child every week, take him on camp, clean him up after he shat himself, wash out his sleeping bag 4 times in a week after he wet the bed...but they would not even say hello, let alone "thank you for giving up your time."

And they were surprised when I left, and quite indignant. Because heaven forbid they should give up their holiday to take care of strangers children...

My ds1 went on camjam 5 yes ago - he had a ball. Its not like a normal camp ( I don't even think they cooked or washed much)
Both ds1 & 2 went to norjam last year, tail end of a storm. Tents broke & blew away. Best fun ever. There's loads of activities, we still have the woggles and engraved glasses he made. They get a special scarf etc. Check if there is a camjam radio group on Facebook. I hope he goes, I'm sure he'll have fun. Just let the leaders know he's having a wobble
Ds2 is off to the international scout site In Switzerland next year (gulp)

a) it wasn't food poisoning and b) that it was the OP's fault for not treating her daughter to handle raw chicken.

So which is it? It can't be both.

Er, yes it can. It may not be food poisoning and just sharing her mother's hysteria over radio active chickens.

allowing children to shit outside the tent is hardly hygienic

Yes camps have night patrols to stop shitting outside tents. Because the leaders don't like sleep and think that 10 year old need the level of supervision a toddler does.

I don't think the fact that you're a volunteer gives you a free pass to be negligent.

So volunteers are negligent for parent who fail to teach their 10 year old kids to shit in a toilet. Does that make parent's negligent if their child gets ill at home? Social services had better get round to the OPs to investigate whether the cause of this negligence was indeed food poisoning and whether the child shits in the bushes at home.

Yes ok. If you say so. Not ridiculous at all.

muminhants, I went on Scout camp last month. It was my first. There was one lad who was nervous and anxious about doing anything. He was the one who managed the biggest achievement of the weekend. Of all the kids he was the one who needed it most. The leaders were all so proud of him and that was what doing the camp was about for them - even though some of them had their own children there.

So for that reason, I would try and get him to go. But do tell the leaders of the situation and to judge how it goes. I'm sure they'd rather give it a go than have him miss the opportunity as that's what scouting is about.

I am pretty grateful that our Scout Leader has decided on a zero tolerance approach to poor behaviour from all. He has said that kids only get to do things if they behave and he also insists on parental support. Him and DH do a lot but still need the support. DH had a training course - a scout one - on scout night recently, so he asked for volunteers. When none were forthcoming he cancelled the meeting at the last minute. He tries to make sure the parents understand THEIR responsibility too rather than pinning it all on the leaders.

Both of mine went to kentjam (didn't go to norjam as we were busy fundraising) the year before last and DD is currently in Japan at worldjam. I would say Scouting has given them both some wonderful experiences, ones they will never forget and in my experience the leaders do take their responsibilitys seriously.

I gave up running a local Brownie pack after three years due to lack of parental support and verbal abuse.

The pack was very popular - I had 30 girls. I ran it with two assistants and a few young leaders (although they couldn't count towards ratios). One assistant moved away, so we got permission to run it with one assistant and a parent helper per week - except no one volunteered. (TBF, a couple of families apologised that they couldn't help due to work/other family members but they did help at other events so fair enough).

Cancelling 4-6 meetings out of 12 in the term due to being unable to meet the ratios (and I did try everything to get someone in) was not uncommon and despite a recruitment campaign to try to get another guider, no one stepped up.

I left after I got a mouthful of abuse from a parent in the supermarket because I'd cancelled the meeting that week - and she'd made plans she hadn't wanted to cancel.

It wasn't worth it anymore. The pack folded after I left which I felt guilty about, but I couldn't take it anymore.

So for the sake of one or maybe two weeks a year (30 girls, term time meetings) that parents couldn't be bothered to do, their kids lost out.

I miss Guiding, but don't know if I'll ever go back - it's a poisoned chalice.

To be honest, as leaders, there is many a time we have taken kids to camp and the parents have rolled up the following morning to pick them up (Beavers do one night so spend 24 hours with us) and the parents are hungover.

There is a story over here of parents who sent their child to cubs camp, then went to France for the weekend on the boat . The child fell and hurt themselves, parents were called but couldn't do anything as they weren't even on the island.

Scouting/Guiding is seen by alot as very cheap, weekend childcare and not appreciated at all.

We're fortunate, our parents are really appreciative of the work we do - one in particular always says thank you for giving up our evenings/afternoons/days/week etc :)

but, it is parents like the OP who are quick to blame the leaders that make it all a bit shit.

Leaders have sent 100s of kids through camp. They have training, they know what they're doing. They know how to run a camp, funnily enough.

To all the critics... VOLUNTEER YOURSELVES

Show us all how you can get 30 kids through a week long camp all going to bed quietly before 9pm!

Show us at 4am how you perfectly manage a child's sickness

Show us on day 3 how you magically have no kids with homesickness!

Feel free to fill in ALL the paperwork, ALL the risk assessments, collect all the money, make sure all consent forms are present and correct.

Feel free to organise and book the transport.

Show us how you manage to prevent the kids/parents packing sweets for those midnight feasts.

Feel free to give up a week of your annual leave to go to camp with these kids.

Whilst you're at it, don't forget to pack extra blankets/jumpers/coats because there will be that one child without.

Oh yes, and do volunteer to be QM and provide perfect meals to cater for all tastes within budget!

Oh, yes, and don't worry about getting up at 6am, obviously on your perfect camp all kids will be up dressed and washed ready for breakfast by themselves with no chivvying.

Feel free to organise the duty rotas!

Please DO show us how it is done!

I was in Scouting for over 35 years - I started at 16 - years ago parents just were much more appreciative and willing to get involved - I don't know why it has changed so much - it is very sad. I can remember lugging home loads of lovely thank you gifts after every camp - chocolates, wine etc and receiving handwritten thank you cards from the children.

But attitudes as so different now, everyone seems out to criticise and look for faults - the only people that will suffer are the children who are missing out as so few people are willing to volunteer anymore.

I've made this comment before on Mumsnet - everyone fawns over teachers at the end of the year with gifts etc but how many parents give a proper thank you to all the volunteers who give up their time for children - whether in scouting, guiding, DoE, sports clubs etc etc.