To be fuming with DD's Guide leader?

[Classroomblues]

I am absolutely fuming right now. Dd2 has just got back from a camping holiday with her Guide group. She didn't look particularly great when I picked her up and it turns out she's been unwell with food poisoning and they didn't call me. What's upset me even more is it was caused by incredibly poor hygiene measures.
The cooked chicken yesterday. Dd2 apparently told the leader she isn't allowed to touch raw chicken at home and the leader said "well you're not at home now".

The hand washing was a BOWL of soapy water. Not even any actual soap or running water. Surely anyone knows this is not good hygiene?
Dd said their camp was so far from the toilet block that she had to crouch outside her tent in the middle of the night with an upset stomach etc. :(
She asked the leaders if they would call me this morning and they refused as we were collecting them this evening anyway. AIBU to be upset/ angry? I don't know if I'm more upset or angry right now.

madwomanbackintheattic I say join scouts in part because their permitting system for outdoor activities is utterly bonkers and discourages people from doing them.

The local county has a situation with one activity where there is only a couple of permitted leaders in the activity DH does which are keeping things going for the county campsite. One of them is in her 60s and says she isn't going to do it much longer. At which point they will struggle to do it at all in the county.

You have to have passed a coaching certificate to do it. However they will allow permitted scout leaders to do it on the same site.

To be a permitted scout leader you have to demonstrate your ability and skills to someone who does issues the permits and do some scout lead courses This is on a par with a level 1 coach however this is much less prohibitive as the proper professional coaching certificates because of the cost of training on accredited courses doing the same thing. DH is in the process of getting one so he can get the level above which allows him to do more - this cost is footed out his own pocket and come to the best part of £500. The bar for scout permits in this activity is not low - DH had to spend a considerable amount of time training and demonstrating his skill as they do still expect leaders to know what they are doing, rather that just do it as a hobby themselves.

Perhaps parents of Guides do feel they need more qualifications to do activities with kids. I don't know. But I do find it bonkers that they won't change their own system and instead have become incredibly reliant on the permitted scout leaders, which they have no direct accountability with thus defeating the point anyway.

I do have to admit that apart from that, so far my experience of guides (and I deal with both scouts and guides as an exec) has shocked me in terms of just how different Guiding is, in its regulations and administration in comparison to Scouts. Guiding is stricter on a number of counts and much more risk adverse as a rule and seems to attract parents, leaders and kids accordingly. I had thought them much more similar before getting involved.

I find the differences really interesting - I am actually guiding in a different country at the moment, and volunteered as both a scout and guide leader here before I left scouts. I actually left scouts here because I was horrified that no one needed any qualifications at all - there is no permit system, and all that is required to take kids away, or canoeing or whatever is the approval of the district council (a notification exercise only). It is frighteningly relaxed, and I actually find the guides system (while administratively heavy) at least checks that adults have the skill set required. There are always improvements to be made, though, not least to ensure that volunteers have the correct experience whilst not putting them off by insurmountable hoops to jump through!!

I am absolutely familiar with the time and financial outlay involved - although at least our district has implemented a system where we ensure that no one is out of pocket for the training and certification required. I don't know that it is risk averse, as such - just that it at least ensures that competent adults are doing the activities with the kids. But I have been out of UK guiding for 5 years except for attending international jamborees etc, so my recent experiences with guiding and scouting are from an international perspective.

I am an adult trainer here - to be honest we struggle to get people to attend trainings at all, even when they are free, fun (honest!) and impart a ton of information as to how much your lives easier as a volunteer... So we have leaders struggling on and complaining, but a day at a training session would probably have alleviated a ton of the concern!!

madwoman, I think this is why I find this thread just so funny since Guiding on the whole is more administrative and risk adverse in comparison to Scouting. The chances are that the leaders are more risk adverse to scout leaders doing a camp, and there are still complaints by people like the OP.

I do wonder what people like the OP think is acceptable as a level of risk.

I do dispute that the permitting system is just a notification process though. DH has had to do A LOT to get his permits and getting nights away permits in particular are not that easy to get in reality. (DH hasn't been able to get one to date). That said I do know of one leader who has a permit who really shouldn't and I do know of some leaders who got permits a long time ago and although have updated them are still practising things that are somewhat questionable because 'that's the way they have always been done'.

And as I say, if the way Guides do it, means they accept Scout permits then it rather defeats the point too.

Please chat calmly to the leaders first. On our camps, we've experienced children being sick in the night and they've cleared it up and got back into bed. Despite knowing to wake a leader and leaders being very close by. We can't help a child if we don't know they're unwell.

Also, in the emotion of a time away, tiredness and going home, things can get a bit out of proportion. Therefore going in guns blazing probably isn't a great idea until all the facts are know.

We certainly wouldn't call a parent at the first sign of sickness in a child on our camps, we'd give it 12-24hrs (with them in the sick room) to see whether it's simply tiredness, too much tuck or a simple short-lived bug. Usually 24hrs to rest and recuperate is enough. Obviously there are exceptions, and only if a child was very ill would we call in the night.

We're very lucky that we have a number of leaders with no direct responsibility for members, so there are always several leaders available to look after anyone feeling unwell without compromising ratios for activities.

On a separate note, I'd love a Scout place for DD, our Scout hut is sadly shut and there's nowhere local. Living in hope of sending her on a Scout camp

Oh, I'm not talking about notification for UK scouting - just here. There are genuinely no controls for scouting. To run a weekend camp I would fill in a form with the numbers attending, and collect a permission form for each kid. Nothing else. No permits, no checking of my qualifications. Nothing. I have experience of guiding in both countries, but only scouting here, not in the UK except as a parent. So I won't scout here. Too risky. And I am not inherently a risk averse person. Our local scout troop took out their canoes on the third day of continuous rain - that night the river broke its banks and took out houses for miles, the town was cut off for five days as the highway was destroyed in both directions. And I kept thinking 'they aren't really going to canoe in this, are they?' Yep.

I just get a little concerned that the answer to guide units not getting enough outdoor activities is 'move to scouting then', and not 'let's get more outdoorsy volunteers in guiding then' (including the mums moaning about their girls not getting to go camping enough).

Really, scouting wouldn't survive without the female leaders (and I did lol when they decided to let girls in to solve the leadership conundrum) It stands to reason that if we continually bandy about 'guides sit and do crafts and scouts go outside' then it just becomes a self -fulfilling prophesy - parents steer their girls towards scouting in the mistaken belief that there is something inherently different in the program. And there really isn't. Both guide and scout leaders need to be encouraged to meet the requirements and get out more.

I am fascinated that in 2015 there is still so little communication between the two organizations in any given country, though. Bizarre. Wouldn't happen if I was the chief commissioner So protectionist. It was interesting to watch the dynamic last year at Wings.

Madwoman All of this I actually left scouts here because I was horrified that no one needed any qualifications at all - there is no permit system, and all that is required to take kids away, or canoeing or whatever is the approval of the district council (a notification exercise only). It is frighteningly relaxed is completely factually incorrect.

Scouters have to attend training, obtain qualifications, and have their training validated just to apply for permits, and even then, the DC can 'not issue' it if there is any doubt. You are not allowed to run a camp without your nights away permit. You are not allowed to run an activity - kayaking, climbing, walking, shooting, archery, abseiling, anything, without the right permit.

Please stop scaring parents by writing such rubbish.

I see you are talking only about 1 country, outside of the UK, but you really need to make that very, very, bold and clear and not just put that stuff as if it is all Scouts - as most people will read it.

Christ give the leaders a break - if your own rules have to apply at all times then perhaps keep your DD at home at all times to facilitate this. Yes it's not nice to be unwell away from your parents but it was a few hours - not days!

Whoever would have thought chicken could be so controversial??

That's why I typed it twice, back, to make it absolutely clear that I was not talking about the UK. definitely no intention to scaremonger, although I can see if you were skimming the thread that's how it might have come across. Apols!

I was just musing on how interesting it is that the two organizations are so 'never-the-twain-shall-meet' in the eyes of both the hierarchy and parents - in whatever country you happen to be.

But it does sort of echo maryz's point, that parents do need to make sure they have an understanding of policies and processes in whatever organization they are enrolling their children into - and if you want to know who is in charge of what, what training and quals, then do just ask. It's completely open book, and we have nothing to hide.

I agree that this thread has been twisted into an utterly unrecognisable situation

The OP's DD is not a spoiled brat, or rude, or naughty or any of those other names she's been called. The OP has given her DD some slightly neurotic ideas about food hygiene in my opinion; but that really is her lookout.

Now. There are some excellent Guide leaders out there, and also some not so excellent ones. I've had both kinds when I was young and in the Association. Honestly; there was one who really shouldn't have been doing it. She used to shriek at us and call us stupid and generally really, the whole thing was much, much too stressful for her and I expect she was much better after she gave it up. Not everyone is cut out for it. All the others though, were fab and I still remember them with real fondness even now

What happened was probably somewhere in the middle. A calm word with the leaders on the next meeting will be able to decipher what actually happened; let your DD know you're doing this, she might want to correct anything she's elaborated on it does happen! And also, you could mention the bowl thing and they might allay your fears and say 'oh no we had Purell...' Or something. You could also suggest a way of improving things for next time; you might genuinely suggest something really helpful, so consider that too!

I hope your DD feels better. Regardless of whether it was a little virus; it's not pleasant for a young girl to be ill away from her parents, it makes everything ten times worse.

It is .such more difficult to be a guider nowadays let alone taking a group camping. The argument about running water being essential is ridiculous. How do you wash the utensils that have been used? In a bowl oh hot soapy water!!

Well said Becles, and Maryz.

Funny all this screaming about training and qualifications when the only people allowed unrestricted access to children without any form of check or preparation are parents.

strange argument there. when if is your own child you only have yourself to answer to

I've never met a child who hasn't been enthusiastic, but some of the parents should be banned.

Hmm I've got the opposite problem at the moment - advice welcome. My 12 yo scout is supposed to be going to the week-long Camjam scout camp in Cambridge on Saturday. I think it's a great opportunity for him, he's an only child and it's a week doing interesting activities and there will be a day trip somewhere as well. He also has to do chores which won't do him any harm.

But he has decided that he really doesn't want to go although it's grumpy not wanting to go, not crying not wanting to go. I have come up with three options:

I write off the money and he doesn't go

He does go for the whole week

He does go and we collect him on Wednesday after 4 nights as we've got the day off work and could go and get him

I'm very aware that the scout leaders are volunteers and I'm sure they'd prefer to take kids away who want to be there. And I don't want my son doing something stupid because he doesn't want to be there. HOWEVER, I suspect that once he's there he'll love it or at least some of it. In the Easter holidays he moaned and moaned about doing two afternoons kayaking and when I collected him he was having a wail of a time and had a big smile on his face. But this is a week, not two afternoons.

WWYD?

Either he goes for the whole week or not at all. A promise to pick up him up halfway through will not give him a chance to settle and on pick up day will unsettle the others.

If you know he is waiting to be persuaded into it I'd ignore it all and let the others jolly him into it.

It'll probably be absolutely amazing experience.

What a bizarre thread. Everyone seems to have decided that a) it wasn't food poisoning and b) that it was the OP's fault for not treating her daughter to handle raw chicken.

So which is it? It can't be both. And I don't really understand this idea that the DD could have handled the raw chicken "wrongly" - what do you all imagine she was doing that the other kids weren't doing? (Or vice versa?)

FWIW, it doesn't sound like food poisoning to me, or they'd all have got it. And it would probably have been worse than it was - food poisoning is absolutely debilitating.

Still, in my view, allowing children to shit outside the tent is hardly hygienic, and they should have called you to take her home. I don't think the fact that you're a volunteer gives you a free pass to be negligent.

CamelHump: " I wonder how she was able to wipe and wash her hands afterwards and to what extent this might have led to a stomach upset. "

You seem to have misunderstood. She was pooing outside the tent because she had a stomach upset. She didn't get a stomach upset from pooing outside the tent.