To be fuming with DD's Guide leader?

[Classroomblues]

I am absolutely fuming right now. Dd2 has just got back from a camping holiday with her Guide group. She didn't look particularly great when I picked her up and it turns out she's been unwell with food poisoning and they didn't call me. What's upset me even more is it was caused by incredibly poor hygiene measures.
The cooked chicken yesterday. Dd2 apparently told the leader she isn't allowed to touch raw chicken at home and the leader said "well you're not at home now".

The hand washing was a BOWL of soapy water. Not even any actual soap or running water. Surely anyone knows this is not good hygiene?
Dd said their camp was so far from the toilet block that she had to crouch outside her tent in the middle of the night with an upset stomach etc. :(
She asked the leaders if they would call me this morning and they refused as we were collecting them this evening anyway. AIBU to be upset/ angry? I don't know if I'm more upset or angry right now.

Disposable gloves are no more clean than unwashed hands UNLESS they are sterile medical gloves.
Disposable gloves tend to be used for jobs such as changing adults who are doubly incontinent. They are not supposed to provide a sterile surface, just to stop you getting things like blood or faeces on your hands.

I dont wear gloves but I don't think the PPs meant that gloves are being worn because they give a sterile surface, I think it's so that any bacteria on what you're touching don't stick to your hands, particularly any areas which might be more difficult to clean properly, from which you might spread bacteria to your mouth or to cooked food etc. I agree that taking then off would need to be done carefully to avoid pinging bacteria everywhere as this would defeat the purpose.

I have never heard of anyone cooking at home and being so paranoid about chicken that they refuse to touch it. Using disposable gloves is totally over the top.
Presumably your kitchens all have hot running water and soap? That is all you need. Stop wasting precious resources that are needed to make those gloves and just wash your hands!
A ten year old that isn't capable of washing her hands properly after handling raw meat of any description and then sticks her fingers in her mouth is probably just as lax when it comes to washing her hands after going to the loo and wiping her bum. She's more likely t p have given herself a guppy tummy that way.

You are paranoid and just odd if you think that wearing gloves will achieve anything that reasonable observation to good personal hygiene won't.

Soap and water did more for cross infection control than gloves will ever do.

Chicken isn't poisonous, you just need to wash your hands properly FFS. Do you wear disposable gloves to go to the toilet?

This thread is baffling! Am I seriously the only person who enjoys the cold fleshy feel of raw chicken?!

No! Mojito I really do too!

I'm sorry your DD is still feeling unwell, Classroomblues.

I'm a Guide Leader and I have been going away with Guiding for nearly 30 years. I am SCRUPULOUS about food hygiene, to the point of driving DH up the wall (he was brought up with a rather more cavalier attitude!).

At a camp, I would have a bowl of water for handwashing, separate to the dishwashing bowl. We would have a large jerry-can type of bottle of water next to it, together with a push-dispenser bottle of soap, a roll of paper towel and a rubbish bag. Water goes into the bowl, hands get washed with soap thoroughly and dried, water goes into the hedge every wash or couple of washes.

We always ask the girls to go to the loo in pairs at night, and to wake us up if they are unwell. We used to have a lat tent with a chemical loo for nights, but nobody really likes using it (or emptying it!) so I would only use that if we were some distance away from the loo block.

If someone was being sick or had diarrhoea during the day, we would ring parents. At night, we would move them to a separate first aid tent, closer to the Leaders, then ring parents in the morning.

The combination of going away, nerves/homesickness, change in food and routines, and lack of sleep can and sometimes does cause a slightly upset stomach (e.g. stomach ache). In this case, we would provide TLC, plenty to drink, distraction and monitor the situation discreetly and carefully. Obviously if a child is really ill we would contact parents.

It is also not unknown for girls to suddenly develop a tummy ache when asked to do washing up or packing up at the end of camp!

On the last day we would contact parents if a girls was clearly unwell, but if she was slightly off-colour she will be going home in a few hours anyway.

Was there a parents' meeting before the camp? We don't always have a full-blown meeting, but do encourage the parents to contact us beforehand if they have any queries. We plan the whole thing very much as a joint effort between the Leaders and the girls, including activities and menu. We stress the importance of sleep, although this does not always get taken on board (!!), and of letting us know about problems. We do preparation in the meetings leading up to going away (although sometimes it is not obvious as we don't want those not going to feel like they are missing out). This is all standard Girlguiding practice.

Before you contact the leader, I would ask your daughter why she did not wake one of the leaders when she felt unwell. Did she have diarrhoea, and did she explicitly tell the leaders this? It is a bit embarrassing, but we cannot help if we do not know!

LavenderLeigh - The problem with that, is they are handling raw chicken with gloves that are not clean.
Washing your hands properly, then handling raw chicken, is much safer.
Hygiene standards say if you wear gloves to handle food, you need to clean them, just as you would unwashed hands.

Gloves are packed in similar conditions to those that primark clothes are made in. Cheaply and quickly. Except surgical gloves which are donned in a very specific way to ensure no touch to the outside with anything that's not been irradiated essentially

Disposable gloves made in a sweatshop exaggerated for effect or my own clean hands. No contest really.

Add to that the false sense of security you get from these gloves that are almost always porous means you're bonkers.

fast phew, I was starting to judge myself a little there

I would like to say a big thank you to all the wonderful Guide leaders on this thread who so generously give of their time. I have very happy memories of Guide Camp and so does DD1. Nothing but gratitude from me and amazement that you are prepared to keep doing it with all the risk assessments, spoilt children and demanding parents.

I would be pissed off of my child was ill and asked to ring home and it was refused. If she wanted picking up it's no one else's buisness but mine and hers.

I don't think that's spoilt or demanding.

Guide leaders have explained to me that they don't call parents at the drop of a hat - home sick children often get over it, and many kids feign illness to get out of chores. If your not happy with that, Guide Camp is not for you and your child.

DD went to scout camp in the hols. She was reluctant to go at first because she actually has to do some work (I've given up nagging and yes I do know it's not helping her in the long run!).

Yes she was reluctant to go to the loo in public and yes she managed to peel a bit of her finger while doing potatoes but I'm supremely grateful to the leaders who take her away and won't let her get away with any laziness. And yes she came back exhausted through not enough sleep. BUT she thoroughly enjoyed it and has grown up a bit in the process.

Having gone, as a 'supporting parent' on a brownie trip I was amazed at the excuses we got from girls when it was their turn to wash up or do certain chores. Lots of feeling ill till the next activity came up!

So it's perfectly possible that your DD not wanting to 'touch chicken' was interpreted as her not wanting to do her fair share. Maybe doing her a disservice but very common. If she's upset about that it may colour her opinion about what else happened too. As PPs have said, find out if anyone else was affected by the sickness and if anyone else heard your daughter in the night. If everyone else was fine and nobody heard her I'd assume there might be a bit of exaggeration going on!

Cross post!

I'd say the problem is the levels of paranoia that lead to a mindset where wearing gloves to handle meat at home, Morall, rather than just washing your hands.
I am bemused why a ten year old should be prohibited from touching raw chicken when something so simple as washing hands is all that is needed to remove all risk.
It sounds as if she isn't mature enough for guide camp.

Glitteryarse, if a child is properly ill, then of course we would get them home as soon as possible.

However, sometimes they might feel a bit unwell: perhaps despite our reminders they haven't drunk enough and are now feeling a bit headachy, they've overindulged in sweets and are feeling a bit sick, they haven't had enough sleep, or they are feeling nervous about going abseiling and have a tummy-ache.

In order to take the group abseiling we have to ensure that our ratios are covered, so if Guider 1 is walking with sick child A up to the main gate, there may not be enough leaders to take the rest of the group (and of course ideally you do not want Guider 1 on her own with a girl). If sick child A was looking somewhat off-colour, rather than actually ill, we might suggests she comes to abseiling (with the option of sitting out) and then we get in touch with her parents after that. Often, she will perk up and be absolutely fine. If not, we can then ring home. Of course, we will be monitoring her very carefully during this time.

Equally, if a child wakes up in the middle of the night and just wants to go home, to ring her parents means waking them and disturbing not just the girls in our group (tent walls are not soundproof, and she will have to collect her stuff) but possibly also other groups (because a car is coming on site) and perhaps the site warden as well.

We have to balance the needs of all the group: for one 'AIBU that my daughter couldn't come home immediately?', there might be 35 'AIBU that my daughter missed out on abseiling/got woken up in the middle of the night just because someone else's DD had eaten too many sweets?'

I agree Lavender that wearing gloves is paranoia. Just pointing out that it is paranoia that is actually more risky than just washing your hands. Ironically enough.

Children who are over protected are actually the ones who benefit most from camps like this. But sadly have parents who are most likely to complain.

Fucking hell some of you are being really fucking horrible about this young child. Spoilt little princess? Brats? Drama queen? Wtaf is wrong with yas. She don't touch raw chicken because she's been taught that way so that doesn't make her any of the names above.
Then she gets ill. How does that turn her in to a spoilt princess?
Poor kid was ill away from home and not able to talk to her mother. Of course she's gonna be upset.
These threads go the same as teacher threads.
The child and parent are always in the wrong even if it means twisting the situation into one that no one recognises.
Its fucking weird.

I've never been camping; is chicken a typical camping food? I always think hot dogs, baked beans, etc. Pre-cooked stuff. That said, I've had food poisoning, and I laid on the bathroom floor for three days. I had no energy to do anything else. It sounds like the OP's daughter might have a bug.

I don't think anyone is blaming the child for her mothers bizarre habit of treating chicken like a sample of Ebola.

Do you need to wear gloves if you wash the chicken first?

I wouldn't risk it myself meta, I wear a biohazard suit in a sterile environment (4 airlocks to exit), jet wash it with antibacterial gel and then use a pitchfork to put it in the oven. And then stay in quarantine for a week. Best not to take chances, contact with raw chicken may bring on human extinction, it's deadly.

It sounds like the OPs daughter may have been exaggerating. (Not blaming the child , if she's tired and feeling a bit poorly she's bound to ask to go home) . It's just that I find it hard to believe that a leader would refuse to call a parent in the morning if a child had been up all night pooing outside a tent, with serious food poisoning.

Leaders are generally parents as well, or at least used to dealing with children. They will make the best judgement call they can, under the circumstances. A child who asks to go home on the last morning of camp may well be asked if they can manage to stay on until home time. They often perk up after a while.

Honestly, leaders are damned if they do, damned if they don't!

I'm a cub leader, and once sat up all night with a poorly child, then called the parent first thing on the morning. The parent just grumbled that we'd woken them up and interrupted a lie in!

It occurs to me that the OP's DD might just fancy a bit of fuss from mum after being away and so exaggerate the non-event of a slightly runny poo one night because she touched the Dreaded Raw Chicken. Kids are not blind, she knows this is one of mummy's neurotic triggers and hence is guaranteed to bring on an explosion of cuddles and sympathy and general fuss and attention.