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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

AIBU for not wanting my MIL to discuss Jesus and heaven with my 5 year old?

999 replies

Spearshake · 04/08/2015 13:29

I was just having breakfast with my 5 year old son and he asked me, 'do only people who love Jesus go to heaven?; I asked him who told you that.
Unfortunately, my tone must have been a bit sharp (hey, first thing in the morning) so he said, 'I don't know'

(I know it's his grandma though (my MIL) because she has been staying with us for the last week and we haven't been in contact with anyone else who is likely to make such comments) Unless he has been on the evangelical channels again

The problem is that I am an atheist, so I have a tough time with such discussions. He asked me what God is the other day, and I asked him to wait until his father gets home and he can answer (he was brought up more religiously than me)

Any ideas from fellow mumsnetters of a similar religious (or non-) bent on how to deal with such ideas would be most welcome.

Thank you!

OP posts:

LemonCream · 05/08/2015 17:56

Jo Just to add, as he grows up and starts bombarding you with questions, "I don't know" is a perfectly respectable answer. You are allowed not to know everything!

LemonCream · 05/08/2015 18:00

It wouldn't have been a thoughtless puppet, though, would it? Because the person did have at least one thought, that it had been given a thought by God

This is getting even sillier.

Either God is responsible for all thoughts or he isn't. If he is then he is also responsible for the "God is responsible for all thoughts" thought. He planted that thought in the head of someone who can't do their own thinking.

A puppet.....a marionette AND a person, group or country under the control of another.

Your attempt at explanation is, frankly, embarrassing.

Jo4040 · 05/08/2015 18:00

Yh that's good advice. Thankyou, next time he brings it up I'll slip it in. Cheers

cruikshank · 05/08/2015 18:10

I think parents who bring up children in a spiritual vacuum are incredibly strong and brave.

I did this, until the believers got to them. I wasn't particularly strong or brave, but it was a lovely lovely period in my life. Then the trouble started. The first to sally forth was my own father, with his outrage that 'That little boy doesn't even know who Jesus is', and actually as I heard those words, even though I knew trouble was coming, I was really proud that this was the case. I felt that I'd done the best I could to shield them from all the crap, and it had worked, up to the limits of my powers.

I personally think an ideal world would be one where all talk of religion was considered taboo until a person gets to 18 years old, much the same as sex or what party you voted for used to be. Then, by all means, when people are adults, open the floodgates, give them all the information you want from all parties with their vested interests and their different means of social control, and let the grown-ups decide for themselves whether or not they want to be part of a or several or no religion, having been brought up without superstition or fear.

I know it won't happen, but to me it's a beautiful thought.

DoraGora · 05/08/2015 18:16

under the control of another what?

Gruntfuttock · 05/08/2015 18:21

Ziong thinks God is responsible for all thoughts? So the thoughts of paedophiles, murderers, terrorists, thieves etc are all from God? Time for me to quote the Epicurean Paradox I believe:-

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

LemonCream · 05/08/2015 18:23

under the control of another what?

Blimey, this is hard work. Like trying to talk to someone under water, FFS.

"Another" as in "someone else".

In this case, God.

LemonCream · 05/08/2015 18:24

Oh, and Dora - the puppet definition came from the dictionary. Their phrasing, not mine. Your quibble is inane.

Mehitabel6 · 05/08/2015 18:24

I don't think it a beautiful thought to censor your child's world until they are 18yrs- I find it quite worrying.
I also wouldn't want my child to stop asking me questions because they didn't want me getting in my hobby horse.

DoraGora · 05/08/2015 18:25

God isn't someone, that's the point.

DoraGora · 05/08/2015 18:26

I'll tell you what's inane, calling people pathetic puppets because you can't make a proper argument.

Mehitabel6 · 05/08/2015 18:26

It is like very religious types Home Educating to keep them away from unbelievers. Distinctly worrying.

noeffingidea · 05/08/2015 18:35

Yes, you can keep it to a minimum for a few years, Mehitabel. I was able to do that with my children and it's just irrelevant to them now. My younger son is quite interested in religion from a sociological viewpoint though. I never withdrew them from assembly or religious education but I didn't want it to be part of our lives.

drudgetrudy · 05/08/2015 18:37

I know its off topic from the OP but the discussion is interesting re the refinement of the definitions of agnostic/atheist to agnostic-atheist etc. The things is that some of the atheists sound so sure that they present as gnostic atheists-as if they are sure they know the truth. Its not just one form of theism they argue with -its any spiritual aspect to life that isn't completely rational. All spiritual belief labelled as "woo" and ridiculed.

I find it difficult to understand why anyone would be proud if their child got to adulthood never having heard of the major world religions and their beliefs if only on a cultural level.

My grandson (7) asked me about Egyptian gods-I answered that they were stories the Egyptians told to explain the world(IMO). He also asked me if the beginning of the bible was true or the big bang theory. More tricky as I wasn't sure what his parents had told him but I said that IMO the stories in the Bible explained science in a way the people understood at the time.
Could your son have been asking your MIL a question OP and her attempting to answer it?

LemonCream · 05/08/2015 18:38

God isn't someone, that's the point

That's not a point at all. It's totally irrelevant. The dictionary deals with facts and so hasn't included the supernatural.

But if I have thoughts that I am not responsible for, but some other agent is, I AM a puppet.

I'll tell you what's inane, calling people pathetic puppets because you can't make a proper argument

Then tell Zing. She was the one who told ME that I am not responsible for my own thoughts. If this were true, I WOULD be a pathetic (worthy of sympathy) puppet (in the control of another).

She's welcome to think about herself like that, but I prefer not to. Given my education and reasoning ability.

You are making it all so much worse, Dora. You are the gift that keeps on giving

cruikshank · 05/08/2015 18:38

I don't think it a beautiful thought to censor your child's world until they are 18yrs- I find it quite worrying.

And yet it's ok to take a baby to church, pour water over his/her head and proclaim s/he is a Christian.

We censor all sorts of things. We censor films. We censor music. A lot of parents (not me) censor news items. This is just one more example that I think would be beneficial. After all, it can't do any harm to religion itself, because surely religion is such a powerful force that the fact that people would only have to consider it at all when they reach the age of majority wouldn't have any bearing on church attendance.

I have very fond memories of the time we had before people started talking about god to the dc - particularly given the struggles I've had with my own family members, the supposedly non-faith school and its happy-clappy visiting recruitment assembly creators going 'Hey kids, this apple is a bit like god BECAUSE IT'S GREAT', all high on Jesus and alpha and parading around in front of a crowd of a good few hundred impressionable wide-eyed children, how we lived before all of that looks now with the benefit of hindsight as a kind of (to borrow one of your terms) pre-lapsarian paradise. It would have been nice if it could have extended to last throughout childhood.

LemonCream · 05/08/2015 18:46

The things is that some of the atheists sound so sure that they present as gnostic atheists-as if they are sure they know the truth

So, your grandson says..."Granny, is there an invisible monster under the bed?"

No doubt you'd say..."Well, I don't believe so, but it's possible. There's no evidence whatsoever, but science doesn't know everything and no one can disprove invisible monsters. So, off to bed. Sweet dreams"?

I am as certain as it's possible to be that there is no god...as certain as I am about invisible monsters. On this basis I am completely justified in saying, and believing, that there is no God. It is only in acknowledgement of my lack of omniscience that I concede I might be wrong. And I take exactly the same view with invisible monsters.

If an atheist sounds certain, then it's justified. Whether god exists or not is not a 50/50 proposition.

He also asked me if the beginning of the bible was true or the big bang theory. More tricky as I wasn't sure what his parents had told him but I said that IMO the stories in the Bible explained science in a way the people understood at the time

Shocked that you considered this a "tricky question". It isn't. The BB is fact - being refined all the time, but fact.

Genesis is myth. Outrageous that you would even consider saying anything else to a child who is asking questions.

DoraGora · 05/08/2015 18:48

Look, you can define whatever terms you like, based on your beliefs about the limits of the dictionary. But, all I will say is, if you're going to have arguments based on those definitions, you need to have them with somebody else. I'm sticking to the dictionary.

LemonCream · 05/08/2015 18:52

I don't think it a beautiful thought to censor your child's world until they are 18yrs- I find it quite worrying

So, you let your young children watch hardcore porn then? Play X-rated games?

We censor anything we consider harmful to our children. I think there's a case for censoring access to ideologies that promote sexism, genocide, murder, homophobia and beliefs such as "You are not responsible for your own thoughts".

Familiarity has given religions like Christianity and Islam a respectability that they simply don't deserve. If they were invented today, we'd all be keeping our kids the hell away from them.

I also wouldn't want my child to stop asking me questions because they didn't want me getting in my hobby horse

What a childish dig, since you don't know how any of us talk to our kids.

But I hope when you are asked questions you have better answers than the ones you've been putting forward on this thread.

LemonCream · 05/08/2015 18:58

This is sincerely funny!!

Your argument.....having god doing your thinking for you and zapping thoughts into your brain does not make you a puppet because in order to be a puppet it has to be another person doing the deed!!!!!!

Well, Dora...read the definition again. And then think about what "another" means....."used to refer to a different person or thing from one already mentioned or known about"

Or are you going to quibble that god is not a "thing".

LemonCream · 05/08/2015 19:01

Sorry to keep addressing comments to you, Dora. Should I address them straight to god, since he's doing all your thinking for you and not doing a very good job either

cruikshank · 05/08/2015 19:02

drudgetrudy · 05/08/2015 19:04

Lemon Creme-I can check under the bed-therefore can prove there is no monster there-unfortunately I am not privy to the secrets of the Universe.

I did say the big bang (or something like it) was true and added that the Bible story explained it in a way people understood at the time.
Out of interest what would I have been expected to say if his parents were creationists? Therefore more tricky. No-one on here likes grannies contradicting parents!

Mehitabel6 · 05/08/2015 19:05

You bring up children according to your own ideas - therefore if you are a Christian they are likely to be christened - if you are a vegetarian they are not likely to be offered meat etc etc. I don't have a problem with that - I have the problem with not wanting to know about the way other people live or assuming that because they were christened they will be confirmed or because they were not given meat they will always keep off meat.
The more questions they ask the better - and you are the best person to encourage it.

Mehitabel6 · 05/08/2015 19:07

There is no such thing as a non faith school, they are just non denominational.

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