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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU for not wanting my MIL to discuss Jesus and heaven with my 5 year old?

999 replies

Spearshake · 04/08/2015 13:29

I was just having breakfast with my 5 year old son and he asked me, 'do only people who love Jesus go to heaven?; I asked him who told you that.
Unfortunately, my tone must have been a bit sharp (hey, first thing in the morning) so he said, 'I don't know'

(I know it's his grandma though (my MIL) because she has been staying with us for the last week and we haven't been in contact with anyone else who is likely to make such comments) Unless he has been on the evangelical channels again

The problem is that I am an atheist, so I have a tough time with such discussions. He asked me what God is the other day, and I asked him to wait until his father gets home and he can answer (he was brought up more religiously than me)

Any ideas from fellow mumsnetters of a similar religious (or non-) bent on how to deal with such ideas would be most welcome.

Thank you!

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 05/08/2015 15:45

"we evolved to fit the conditions available
"The conditions available" is the most puzzling of all. How can this be dismissed as of no consequence."

Sorry- I don't understand- could you say more?

CoteDAzur · 05/08/2015 15:45

Dora - Arguments were made, points clarified, and you totally ignored them.

Specifically, I explained to you why you can't expect people to disprove your God hypothesis. Also, I showed you that your line of reasoning is a logical fallacy called Appeal To Ignorance.

And your response was... nothing.

keepitsimple0 · 05/08/2015 15:46

"The conditions available" is the most puzzling of all. How can this be dismissed as of no consequence.

who's dismissing this as of no consequence? of course it's consequential. The people who are investigating this, however, simply don't accept the answer "god did it" until there is evidence for a god. Lack of an explanation for a phenomenon isn't evidence for god. It is evidence that we have more digging to do.

Gruntfuttock · 05/08/2015 15:47

Has anyone quoted the Epicurean Paradox yet?

CoteDAzur · 05/08/2015 15:47

"Oxford online: Definition of atheism in English:
Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods."

Great. Now you are on the same page as the rest of us.

As I said: Someone who says "I believe God doesn't exist" OR "I don't find your God hypothesis believable and don't believe it".

tarashill · 05/08/2015 15:47

I think the response should have been more like "ooh I can tell you've been talking to grandma" and laughed and then you could have discussed it in a relaxed manner. Kids are going to get told all sorts of things, some right some wrong, I don't believe in making issues out of them, because then they can become issues. All it might do is stop the child from telling you anything else about what grandma says.

LemonCream · 05/08/2015 15:47

Oh, and Dora et al...

Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. They address different issues and answer different questions.

Atheism is about belief, agnosticism is about knowledge. Most atheists (including Dawkins) will say they don't KNOW but they don't BELIEVE. Making them agnostic atheists.

Honest Christians ought to describe themselves as agnostic theists, but very few do.

Just so you know.

DoraGora · 05/08/2015 15:49

That, cote, is because you keep repeating the same error. I appeal to nothing.

The existence of God can be neither proven nor disporoven.

That's it. There is no appeal there. It's simply a statement.

Mehitabel6 · 05/08/2015 15:50

YANBU to not want MIL to discuss Jesus with your 5 yr old but YABU to expect to control your child's whole environment and the all people they come into contact with and YABU not to honestly answer questions, to the best of your ability, as they crop up.
(You can go NC - if you want control- but that seems a bit extreme in this case.)

LemonCream · 05/08/2015 15:52

They still cannot understand how it is we are here at all. They can't explain why our universe is tailor made to perfection for life to exist. The odds of this perfection to have happened by chance are so high they are incalculable

In a universe as big as this one very, very, very unlikely events happen all the time. It only had to happen once.

And the universe is not tailor made for life. Life is tailor made for the universe.

tarashill · 05/08/2015 15:53

Keepitsimple there are scientists who "are investigating this* who have conceded that there must be a higher power or a supreme intelligence at work. Many have declared that it is easier to believe there is a God and have more reasons to believe there is one than to say there is not.

Mehitabel6 · 05/08/2015 15:54

tarashill's way is a good way out if you don't want the discussion.

DoraGora's
' the existence of God can be neither proven or disproven' is a good one to use with a 5 yr old- in age appropriate language.

Mehitabel6 · 05/08/2015 15:54

or nor

Mehitabel6 · 05/08/2015 15:57

I certainly wouldn't make it an issue- and mummy jumping up and down , getting cross, talking about 'imaginary friends' certainly makes it an issue - and a pretty exciting issue at that!

LemonCream · 05/08/2015 15:58

The existence of God can be neither proven nor disporoven

There is an appeal with this. It is your justification for actively choosing to believe in the particular god (out of a choice of 10,000 or so) that you do.

And it's a terrible, illogical and rather childish one. And what does it say about your faith that you can only support it with such terrible excuses and justifications? Oh, and a misunderstanding of very basic science too.

SandWitch · 05/08/2015 15:58

In answer to the OP - I think that, without engaging in conversation with your son, it's impossible to know what he was thinking when he asked you about Jesus and heaven.
It could have gone something like this...
"Granny, are you scared of dying?"
"No. I'm not scared because I believe in Jesus and that I will go to heaven"

It could of course have equally been Granny being more manipulative.

Without asking your MIL, I guess you will never know.

The debate has clearly moved on to the usual attack/defence strategy by believers and non-believers alike.

FWIW, as a practising Catholic family we have lots of conversations at home about those with other faiths, or none. My children are interested to hear about lots of views, and I am very open with them that there is much we do not understand.
I completely get that to many, my faith is a curiosity because I can't prove that the God that I pray to exists. I'm happy to talk to people if they ask, I find most are respectful towards me, in the same way that I respect their opinions on the subject.
I grew up in a family where religion was not really discussed (even by my Catholic grandmother) and I did not become a Christian until I was an adult. My father finds my faith difficult to understand but he accepts it, and attends significant events, such as my dc's Baptism and First Holy Communion.

I do however have a problem with people who refer to God as "my imaginary friend". I just find this disrespectful and a horrible way of engaging with anyone. I would not dream of wishing to denigrate another's beliefs or non-belief in this way. It just comes across as a term used to hurt or humiliate and most kind, thoughtful people would usually prefer not to do that.

tarashill · 05/08/2015 16:00

Lemoncream "The universe is not tailor made for life"?
There wouldn't be a scientist in the world who would agree with that. Of course it's tailor made for life. That has never been in dispute. If the sun and moon were not in their exact positions there would be no life on Earth. Like I said the odds that this happened by chance were incalculable.

LemonCream · 05/08/2015 16:01

there are scientists who "are investigating this who have conceded that there must be a higher power or a supreme intelligence at work. Many have declared that it is easier to believe there is a God and have more reasons to believe there is one than to say there is not*

Out of hundreds and thousands of scientists worldwide you might find one or two that say this. And you will also find that they are generally religious (so not unbiased) and do not have any support at all from their peers.

99.999999999999999% do not, and would not, make the claim that you're pretending they do. Unfortunately, crackpots are everywhere even in science.

DoraGora · 05/08/2015 16:01

No, my justification is completely different and buried somewhere a few pages ago. No, what it is is a refutation of the claim of non existence, which is prevalent among atheists.

Non existence is incorrect. The truth is we don't know one way or the other and have no way of testing it.

BertrandRussell · 05/08/2015 16:02

"The existence of God can be neither proven nor disporoven"

Can I refer you back to my posts about whether or not you're a dolphin? They explain all this very clearly- I can't bring myself to type it all out again.

noblegiraffe · 05/08/2015 16:04

Tarashill, think about how many Suns and moons and Earths there are in the universe.

The odds of winning the lottery are incredibly small, and yet someone wins most weeks.

DoraGora · 05/08/2015 16:04

No thanks.

keepitsimple0 · 05/08/2015 16:05

No, what it is is a refutation of the claim of non existence, which is prevalent among atheists

and how many atheists here have claimed god certainly does not exist?

The truth is we don't know one way or the other and have no way of testing it.

so, if neither proposition can be proven with certainty, what is the reasonable belief? Apply the same to pink unicorns.

LemonCream · 05/08/2015 16:06

There wouldn't be a scientist in the world who would agree with that. Of course it's tailor made for life. That has never been in dispute. If the sun and moon were not in their exact positions there would be no life on Earth. Like I said the odds that this happened by chance were incalculable

Would love to know where you are getting your "facts" from.

You are very confused. Life is tailor made for the universe, not the other way around. No scientist for the past 200 years has said anything different.

We exist as we do because we evolved to fit the conditions of this planet. The planet was not put here for us, for crying out loud.

And who, in their right mind would design a universe "for life" in such a way that 99.99% of it is uninhabitable, not to mention dangerous, to all known lifeforms?

The arrogance of thinking all this is here for YOU is quite extraordinary. It isn't.

Have you named changed in the course of this thread?

keepitsimple0 · 05/08/2015 16:10

There wouldn't be a scientist in the world who would agree with that.

examples?

Given that the only evidence for life in the vast cosmos is here on our own planet, literally (as far as we know) 99.99999999999 (as far as you want)% of the universe is lifeless.

doesn't sound tailor made to me.