Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU for not wanting my MIL to discuss Jesus and heaven with my 5 year old?

999 replies

Spearshake · 04/08/2015 13:29

I was just having breakfast with my 5 year old son and he asked me, 'do only people who love Jesus go to heaven?; I asked him who told you that.
Unfortunately, my tone must have been a bit sharp (hey, first thing in the morning) so he said, 'I don't know'

(I know it's his grandma though (my MIL) because she has been staying with us for the last week and we haven't been in contact with anyone else who is likely to make such comments) Unless he has been on the evangelical channels again

The problem is that I am an atheist, so I have a tough time with such discussions. He asked me what God is the other day, and I asked him to wait until his father gets home and he can answer (he was brought up more religiously than me)

Any ideas from fellow mumsnetters of a similar religious (or non-) bent on how to deal with such ideas would be most welcome.

Thank you!

OP posts:
DoraGora · 05/08/2015 10:12

That's great, noble. As long as you don't burden me with them, it's fine.

CoteDAzur · 05/08/2015 10:13

Dora - re "Of course you can prove a negative".

You can prove some negatives, like you can prove what something isn't by showing what is - Dora is a human, therefore she isn't a dolphin.

You can't do this with most other negatives - I can't prove that there isn't an invisible, silent, non-material, non-intrusive ghost in my house. Same with your hypothetical creator deity.

The point that you are spectacularly missing is that one can't be asked to prove a negative. Not just shouldn't, but cannot. This is basic philosophy : When two parties are in a discussion and one affirms a claim that the other disputes, the one who affirms has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim.

Also, you are committing a Logical Fallacy called Appeal to Ignorance when you claim your God hypothesis is true because it hasn't been proved false. This is basic Logic.

CoteDAzur · 05/08/2015 10:15

"know it all atheists keep telling us that God doesn't exist"

Do you have trouble understanding plain English?

CoteDAzur Tue 04-Aug-15 16:18:13
"the statement there is no God, is one of belief"

That's not the statement we are making, though. My statement is "I listened to your God hypothesis and think it makes no sense & you have zero proof, so I don't believe it". This is not a statement of belief, and I don't have to prove the opposite of your claim to say that I don't believe you.

The onus of proof is on the person making a claim, not on the ones who are skeptical.

AlanPacino · 05/08/2015 10:15

telling us that God doesn't exist

I don't know/can't say that there in no 'god', but I am certain it isn't the biblical god because I can read the bible and its claims and see that it doesn't match up with reality and this is also the case with other religious texts that lay claim to a personal god. If there is a god it is one that isn't interested in human affairs, so not one that there is any reason to think about, and one that there is no evidence for at present.

DoraGora · 05/08/2015 10:15

Well, of course, some negatives are harder to prove than others! But, I think we all know that.

BertrandRussell · 05/08/2015 10:16

"So, you can sit any particular protege down and say to him or her, various beings might or might not exist, but, as far as we know it's extremely unlikely that they do.

What's wrong with that?"

Absolutely nothing.

noblegiraffe · 05/08/2015 10:19

I see, Dora. So when you said upthread But, I'd say that an atheist who's certain of no God or who denigrates believers is someone who hasn't thought things through, yet.

What you actually meant was "I don't want to hear atheists' reasons for not believing god exists and would prefer to think they haven't thought their stance through"

Because that would be less threatening to your position, right?

BertrandRussell · 05/08/2015 10:20

"The reason we're asking for a test, is because the know it all atheists keep telling us that God doesn't exist. The problem is, they have no vague clue whether that's correct or not. They just enjoy saying it."

Ah. So you haven't actually read anything I've posted over the last hour or so explaining what I- and in my experience most other atheists- think about God. What a waste of time!

DoraGora · 05/08/2015 10:22

I think atheists should shut up.

noblegiraffe · 05/08/2015 10:24

Do you think believers should shut up too?

DoraGora · 05/08/2015 10:26

Indeed, some of them should. When asked a question they are quite entitled to answer it. But, neither group of believers, for or against the existence of God should try to convince the other of what cannot be proven.

GoodtoBetter · 05/08/2015 10:27

I don't see the big deal really. I'm an atheist and DH is agnostic but brought up Catholic but not by particularly religious parents iyswim. We live in a nominally Catholic country but his parents weren't particular church goers.
Our kids sit out religion class at school but if anything like this comes up, like MIL telling the kids that FIL was looking down on them from the clouds (they were a bit confused by that one, kept looking for him, ha h aha) We just say that people believe lots of different things that give them comfort but that mummy and daddy don't believe in God, just in being kind to others and living a good life. It's fine.

StitchingMoss · 05/08/2015 10:28

"Why must he be an atheist just because you are?"

Why is this nonsense only ever thrown at atheists?! So it's okay to bring up your child as a Catholic/Muslim/Jew but not as an atheist?

We do the "some people believe" thing but are also very open with our DC about our lack of belief. MIL is a Christian and a great example of a lot of the reasons I'm not!

I wouldn't stop my children from having belief (how could I?!) but can't say I wouldn't be bloody disappointed if they did.

StitchingMoss · 05/08/2015 10:30

"I think atheists should shut up"

Hmm, that's because you can't answer their questions? Uncomfortable? Belief is a leap of faith and it's hard to have your faith questioned. You only have to scratch the surface of most religions to find huge cracks in them. Sad.

noblegiraffe · 05/08/2015 10:32

Then, Dora, you agree that the MIL was out of line?

In fact, that would go for any kind of religious indoctrination of children, who do not believe until they are told to.

StitchingMoss · 05/08/2015 10:34

Ooh, we could close all faith schools on that basis noble?!

DoraGora · 05/08/2015 10:35

What I think is that if you combine, religion, mother in laws, small children and the abuse of authority, on mumsnet, then you have the makings of a thread which will run forever, by itself.

StitchingMoss · 05/08/2015 10:37

Beautifully avoided noble's excellent question there Dora?

Would you like to answer it? It's a very interesting point.

gotthemoononastick · 05/08/2015 10:43

Do not let him worry his little head about getting into heaven OP! Just tell him that Heaven is for Christians like Granny and for heaven's sake do not mention the alternative !

Up to you to tell him what you are and thus by default he is too but he can always choose what to believe later.

I think parents who bring up children in a spiritual vacuum are incredibly strong and brave. I have always had to pray and hope ... a lot!

MackLin · 05/08/2015 10:45

Stitching: you'd be disappointed if your children found faith?
What a horrid thing to say.
You sound lovely.

StitchingMoss · 05/08/2015 10:51

Why is it a horrid thing to say? That's a stupid thing to say! You know nothing about me, my experiences or my life. I don't want them to find faith for lots of reasons as I've seen the damage it causes.

That's not to say I would stop them.

I didn't say I would disown them did I?

Get ove yourself.

tarashill · 05/08/2015 10:53

I don't think the MIL should be treated too harshly, she went too far in saying that "you have to believe in Jesus to get to Heaven", but in MILs eyes she sees a grandchild who is learning nothing about Jesus in a household where He is never spoken about. I often wonder if atheists in their eagerness to pass on their beliefs to their children, rather than say "I don't believe in God" say in an authoritive tone "There is no God"
Because basically just as a believer has no proof there is a God, neither does an atheist that there isn't.

SolidGoldBrass · 05/08/2015 10:55

I would also be disappointed if DS started subscribing to any of the myth systems. Not only are they idiotic, but they are unpleasant and socially harmful. I'd prefer him to stick with the imaginary friends he came up with on his own - his invisible little brother, dog, cat, flock of imaginary mallards etc. He doesn't want to start wars over them, none of them exhibit any signs of misogyny, racism or homophobia and they don't shit on the carpet, either.

CoteDAzur · 05/08/2015 10:59

Dora - "some negatives are harder to prove than others! But, I think we all know that"

You don't get it. Here, let me make it easier:

(1) Many negatives are impossible to prove.

(2) You can't ask for it because the Burden of Proof is on you as the claimant, not on others who are sceptical of your claim.

(3) What you are doing is a Logical Fallacy called Appeal To Ignorance - "If you can't disprove my claim, then it must be true".

These are not opinions but facts you can actually learn if you just read a bit of Philosophy and Logic. You would hugely benefit from the experience.

StitchingMoss · 05/08/2015 11:01

But why should I have to speak about Jesus in my house? I have friends who subscribe to different religions, they don't talk about alternative faiths in their house.

Jesus/God/religions plays no part in our lives whatsoever so why should we give it the time of day? They'll learn about it at school and if they bring it up I'll talk and answer their questions in the same way I would answer questions about geography, history, science, etc.