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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to think its hypocritical to be outraged about Cecil the Lion?

156 replies

screenjunkie · 01/08/2015 23:23

I think it's disgusting what happened and upsetting.

I'm also a vegetarian and I'm starting to become a vegan now too.

Why are people so outraged by the death of a lion when they probably ate meat the same day?

So because a cow/pig/chicken maybe isn't as interesting or as exotic as a lion it's life is less valuable?

I'm not preaching for people to become vegetarians because its a very personal choice and a big lifestyle change. But aibu to think it's hypocritical to be outraged over a lion when you probably contribute to another animals suffering daily?

OP posts:
unlucky4marie · 02/08/2015 12:32

Cecil the Lion sounds like the title of a Disney film and his demise at the hands of the Driller Killer (Copyright N. Ferrari) has caused the nation, nay, the world to burst into tears and yank the three-ply from the nearest box of tissues.

Let me state from the outset that I do not agree with the hunting of animals, I find the trophies that are made of them revolting, I do not go to zoos as I think they are cruel and I buy organic meat, eggs and dairy specifically because I think the animals involved will probably have had a better life.

On that last one, I am virtually alone. Only five percent of us in the UK buy organic milk or eggs, just 4.5% of turnover is organic, even in Waitrose, which is the market leader, and those that do buy organic are almost never doing so because of animal welfare.

The stated reasons for buying organic, as revealed by a survey by the Soil Association puts animal welfare seventh out of nine responses, after healthier, fewer chemicals, naturalness, the environment, safer and taste. Just 10% of the 5% who buy organic are doing so because they care about the animals.

The other 95% who do not buy organic state that they do not do so overwhelmingly because of price. That is a lie. They can afford it, they just choose to spend their money on themselves instead.

An organic egg is about ten pence more expensive than a battery farmed one. Are the vast majority who choose not to buy organic really trying to convince themselves that they can't afford that extra 10p? Might those same people also have a smart phone, a car, Sky TV, holidays? It's not price, it's that we just don't care how our food is produced and what the animals go though to get dinner on our plate.

The argument about the killer of Cecil being somehow morally wrong compared to the rest of us is predicated upon the pleasure that hunter got from his kill and the endangered nature of the animal he killed.

As for the pleasure part, we only eat meat because it gives us pleasure. No-one needs to eat meat. The world would be a much better place if we didn't. Land that is currently given to grazing could be used for the more environmentally friendly production of vegetables, which is a much more efficient way to gain nourishment.

We eat meat because it gives us pleasure, we want a savoury taste sensation on our vast dinner plates. We could all go vegetarian today and the killing would stop. That would mean, in the UK, in one year alone we would not massacre 9.8million pigs, 15m sheep, 18m turkeys, 14m ducks, 2.6m cattle, 945m chickens, 2.6 billion shellfish and 4.5 billion fish.

We like to think of farms as something out of The Darling Buds of May - bucolic retreats where the chickens scratch around the yard and the ruddy faced farmer throws grain for them from a bowl he carries round his fecund domain. The truth would probably put you off meat for life. And we haven't even got to the abattoir yet.

Animals do not die in peace with Beethoven playing in the background and we would rather not think of it, so we don't find out and we don't spend more to ensure some small improvement in the way they live and die. Just 3.5% of agricultural land is organic and it is that low because demand is that low. If we bought more, they would produce more.

On the issue of endangerment. If the upper estimates are correct we coexist with about 100,000,000 species of animals. Between 10,000 and 100,000 go extinct every year. Where are the campaigns and the letter writing about any of those? There aren't any because they are mostly of the creepy, crawly variety and do not look like childrens' stuffed toys.

The truth is that we are only concerned with animals that are visually attractive to us. It is a beauty parade where the penalty for ugliness is death.

We keep 8 million cats as pets in this country. They kill 275 million prey each year, of which 55 million are birds. They do not do that because they are hungry, just as we do not eat animals because we are are hungry.

We keep 9 million dogs, mostly in towns, where they are kept locked up, alone, while their owners go to work. Dogs, being social animals, do not like this. They think they are being abandoned every day.

Instead of running wild over hills and dales, they get walked twice a day, if they are lucky, and get to pee on a tree in the midst of a concrete wasteland. If we were honest with ourselves, we would call this selfish. We would acknowledge that the dogs are not as happy as they could be, but we think they are cute and they amuse us, so we imprison them.

We are all deeply schizophrenic in our attitude to animals and the only people who can truly occupy the moral high ground are vegans, and out of a UK population of 63 million “animal lovers” there are just 150,000 of them.
www.lbc.co.uk/nick-abbots-blog-3483/entry/78/10118

MrsGentlyBenevolent · 02/08/2015 12:32

Yes, Marie, of course they are Hmm.

Anniegetyourgun · 02/08/2015 12:40

Sociopathic now! Since we're into the long words, how about hyperbole?

gamerchick · 02/08/2015 12:51

Ah man I hate meat is murder frothing threads. I always want to go buy steaks. It's chicken pie for tea not ruddy steak Angry

screenjunkie · 02/08/2015 12:55

Ah man I hate meat is murder frothing threads. I always want to go buy steaks. It's chicken pie for tea not ruddy steak

I can't see any frothing from either side. No one is preaching that you should become vegan and you are a terrible human being for daring to eat meat.

My point is I don't understand the outrage at one animals death when the vast majority of those outraged people are contributing to the death of another animal on a daily basis.

OP posts:
Whiskwarrior · 02/08/2015 12:58

Wow, someone's got her soap box out today.

Bored with prostitutes and Madonna now, are we?

screenjunkie · 02/08/2015 12:59

Nah, nobody thinks your views are important OP, don't worry about that.

Confused I think my point was very much my view is no more important than that of anyone else.

Makeup, unlike food, is entirely unnecessary. Guess that makes you more of a hypocrite than me, eh

I've always used cruelty free make up but after talking to a friend who has been vegan it seems certain companies can claim this without it being true. I did not realise this so thats why I mentioned it.

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Whiskwarrior · 02/08/2015 13:00

And annie sums it up beautifully anyway but the frothers are going to ignore that because they prefer to concentrate on being superior to the rest of us.

screenjunkie · 02/08/2015 13:00

Bored with prostitutes and Madonna now, are we?

Is that aimed at me?

Confused
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Whiskwarrior · 02/08/2015 13:02

Oh, no, sorry OP. You came back to the thread as I was typing it.

We can always include them in the discussion if you like though!

screenjunkie · 02/08/2015 13:07

We can always include them in the discussion if you like though!

What Madonna and prostitutes?

If you can incorporate those topics into this thread I'd be impressed haha

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gamerchick · 02/08/2015 13:08

Personally I just think it's nice we live somewhere where we have the luxury of choice.

We have the luxury of being able to follow the food choices we want and to and do just about anything.

If the world went to hell and all of what we know vanished our survival instincts would kick in and override everything... Including what we choose to put in our bodies
That adored dog or cat would be killed, skinned and eaten faster that you could say hypocrite.

Deep inside every single one of us no matter how evangical you are about food is the need to survive and given the choice of starving to death or eating that rat you caught, you would eat the rat. Just be thankful you don't know what it's like to be really hungry and have choice.. Just like everybody else your shit still stinks.

People are allowed to be upset about an animal being hunted and made to suffer for days whether they eat meat or not.

MehsMum · 02/08/2015 13:17

Gordon Bennet, Marie, do you live on the same planet as I do?

Instead of running wild over hills and dales
Dogs are not, repeat NOT, wild animals. They evolved alongside people. Both my dogs are thoroughly practical animals, but if the older one was in the wild, she'd be dead by now.

We would acknowledge that the dogs are not as happy as they could be, but we think they are cute and they amuse us, so we imprison them.
Seriously? Keeping a pet dog is 'imprisonment'? I know that not every dog owner walks the dog regularly, and that some dogs are left shut up alone all day, but many, many dogs in the UK have really rather nice lives. Like my poor sad prisoners, who have seen the woods once today and will see them again later.

the only people who can truly occupy the moral high ground are vegans
Yer WOT? Moral high ground? Have you the faintest, tiniest inkling of how crops are grown? Of the pest control methods used to ensure that the wheat that is sown survives assorted insects, birds and rodents long enough to grow and ripen? Have you ever seen brassicas after a visit from either cabbage white caterpillars, or a some wood pigeons? Hence the pest control.

Yeah, great, go ahead and be an organic vegan. But please bear in mind that if we all did this, we'd more than likely starve. The people who have the moral high ground are the ones who have decided that there are too many people on the planet and opted not to have any children. I am not one of them.

screen, if you don't see any frothing, just read Marie's post. And perhaps mine, because she's wound me up just a leeetle bit.

Anniegetyourgun · 02/08/2015 13:30

I think my point was very much my view is no more important than that of anyone else.

You did say that, yes. It's my view too. Were you not expecting agreement?

screenjunkie · 02/08/2015 13:33

I think my point was very much my view is no more important than that of anyone else.

You did say that, yes. It's my view too. Were you not expecting agreement?

The way you said it felt like you were stating that I really did think my opinions counted more.

Anyway you really seem to be going out of your way to be obnoxious and start an argument and I just won't succumb to that level ... so have yourself a nice day.

OP posts:
screenjunkie · 02/08/2015 13:34

screen, if you don't see any frothing, just read Marie's post. And perhaps mine, because she's wound me up just a leeetle bit

The only frothing I've seen at this point is from you.

Don't let yourself get wound by the opinions of a stranger.

OP posts:
MrsGentlyBenevolent · 02/08/2015 13:37

Mehs, trouble with people like Marie is that they will never acknowledge they are part of the problem. They think they are saving the world because they are vegan, at least most meat eaters (and generally, vegetarians) aren't so deluded and so wrongly smug. I've said on another thread, the only way that the eco system can ever be 'completely natural' again, is if humans and their creations disappeared from the planet. That's all of us, whether we have zero regard for the natural world, live balanced lives, or are ignorant vegans (and everything in between). We're all the problem, it doesn't matter what we do, we always have a negative impact on the natural world around us.

Anniegetyourgun · 02/08/2015 13:42

I'm never obnoxious. A teensy bit passive-aggressive I will admit to. I didn't start this argument though - your name's at the top of it on page 1. Like I said in my earlier post, you say something rude, people lash back. I'm lashin'. But, you know, not in an upset way. Just in a "two can play at that game" way. It is a game for me; MN won out over playing Diablo 3. Doing the overdue chores doesn't even get a look-in.

MehsMum · 02/08/2015 14:22

Oooooh!

If Marie's posts don't count as frothing ('we imprison' dogs; British people are 'sociopathic with their feelings towards animals') I'm not entirely sure what does.

MrsGently, agreed. The people who have the smallest impact are probably the hunter-gatherers, who are generally very enthusiastic consumers of whatever meat they can bring home from the hill.

silveroldie2 · 02/08/2015 14:35

Any chance we could have a moratorium on threads on here about vegetarian/vegan/animals for, oh I don't know, ten years? Failing that, ten days would be an improvement.

FWIW I love all animals (even ones that scare me half to death like spiders), would never kill one, only buy free range meat and eggs and am not about to give up.

unlucky4marie · 02/08/2015 15:14

If you bothered to read what I posted you'd see it was a post from the fab nick Abbott. Who isnt veggie but was writing about the hypocrisy in this country.

Congrats on trying to belittle vegans for not being absolutely perfect. Yes the world would only be 99% better if everyone just ate largely what they grew and the rest from a local farm like me.

MehsMum · 02/08/2015 15:33

Marie:

  1. I thought it was pretty obvious that I'd read what you posted.
  2. It wasn't clear that you'd quoted from a website - I assumed that the link at the bottom was a suggestion for further reading, not your source. In any case, if you're quoting him like that, I have to assume that you share the views you're posting, just as I assume you stand behind your own comment about the sociopath feelings of the population of the UK towards animals.
  3. Was I belittling vegans? Maybe, but that would be as a consequence of the ignorance of people who appear to think that dogs should be let loose to live as the wild animals they are most emphatically not, and who accuse the mass of their fellow citizens of being 'sociopathic with their feelings about animals'. Nice.
MrsGentlyBenevolent · 02/08/2015 16:30

Marie, you cannot insult a very large group of people (and your post was rude about practically everyone that's not super vegan), then accuse others of belittling your lifestyle choice (which no one did, just pointed out that despite what you think, just by being human you will always be a negative effect on the natural world). If you can't take it, dont dish out your (or other people's in your case) views.

Whiskwarrior · 02/08/2015 16:45

Oh, Marie is very much one who likes to have a go but if you say anything back you get called a troll!

The very definition of the word 'hypocrite' in fact.

Oh, the irony...

screenjunkie · 02/08/2015 16:57

If Marie's posts don't count as frothing ('we imprison' dogs; British people are 'sociopathic with their feelings towards animals') I'm not entirely sure what does.

I just don't see it as frothing in the slightest.

I see it as someone who is exaggerating their views enormously in order to get a reaction.

OP posts: