Should my MIL and SIL come to DMs funeral

[missnevermind]

Mum died suddenly a few weeks ago.
Mum and Dad have been living in Spain on and off for the last 5 years and were there when it happened. Mum was cremated in Spain as per her wishes but within 3 days as is usual there. The speed of everything took us by surprise.
We are having ' a funeral without a body' here at the local church with drinks afterwards as Dad has brought her ashes home. We are expecting about 70 people.
Now my dilemma / bad thoughts
It has not even occurred to any of DHs family to attend. We have been together 26 years. Married 22 with 4 children.
Is this normal? Am I expecting too much? Would you expect yours to attend?

My parents didn't go to the funeral of my Sil's dad. The thought it would be offensively intrusive to do so. I certainly wasn't because of a lack of caring. It may be a cultural thing - they aren't from the UK.

My in laws didn't come to my mums funeral last year, in fact have not really mentioned her name since she died, and to be honest, I do hold it against them. I don't know why I expected any different, they are spectacularly self absorbed, but I'd hoped they'd step up to support us.

My ex boyfriend's parents came, and I love them for it. They were there to show support for me.

I'm so sorry for your loss OP

Cactus, i think i said i didn't know anyone who went to funerals to support the mourners, not that people didn't think they were going to support them or that there were peopel who went solely to support them (in my family and group we only go if we knew them, to grieve our specific relationship with the deceased). Or at least that's what i meant.

But i do question the idea of 'support' in general. I think people want to feel like they are supporting and helping people so they go. But to me i would feel no support by that, in fact i'd feel a bit insulted. I would feel no support by someone who didn't even know the person being present while i grieved. It would feel horribly ghoulish, morbid and awkward to me. I would definitely tell someone not to come if they said they wanted to. Having a stranger to the deceased there would make me feel way more distress (unless they were to perform a specific task). i don't think it is rude to say politely 'no thank you for offering but please don't come along, we only want people who knew the deceased there', surely people should be able to mourn in their own way. And if your intention is to 'support' the bereaved then surely in this circumstance not going is doing more to do that than turning up where you will make them feel awkward? Or should people feel the need to be social and polite even on their darkest days?

As offensive as everyone thinks not going is, and me saying it's 'for show', that's how i feel inside and i find it equally offensive the other way round. If someone said, do you need any help? would you like me to be there? I would find that nice and supportive, i would decline and say no though, but appreciate the offer. But people just expecting to come because they think they are supporting me and therefore making themselves feel good by thinking they are helping is presumptuous.

Also at our funerals we have no hymns or even much of a service. Just very short really. We don't need to pack out churches or to make hymns sound good. We just cry a lot in a very small chapel while someone says something very brief.

Allguns - did you feel comfort by them being there seeing you like that? I do hope so. Personally i would hate it. It would impede my grieving. I hope you are starting to feel better now

I think it's important to remember funerals are for those grieving and you should follow their cues. If they want you there then go, if they don't, then don't feel offended. It is such a personal thing and no one should be made to deal with it in a way they feel uncomfortable with.

As an aside, i knew a few Irish (i mention this because i do know its the culture to attend) people who would go to everyone and anyones funeral, people would try to politely put them off, but they just carried on, they rode rough shod over the wishes of those actually grieving because, i suppose, it was their culture and they couldn't really comprehend why we all felt squirmy and awkward about it. (They also used to eat all the food and drink all the booze and try to get everyone to sing Irish songs and bang on about how great funerals were back in Ireland - but that's a separate issue - they obviously missed home and were trying to make what was happening something more familiar for them) We used to have to keep funerals a secret!

Due to chronic health issues (DIL's parents) we had very little contact, before they both died within a year of each. We went to both funerals, we wanted to be supportive to DIL and her sister and let her know she still has family.

MrsKoala- to your last paragraph, I believe the correct Mumsnet response is "did you mean to be so rude?"

I couldn't disagree more with mrsk.
When my dad died the church was packed, with his old school friends, work colleagues, and family.
I still have the cards I was sent as does my mum. Some of the things that were written are a source of great comfort to me, 2 years on.
As a half it's person I also take offence at your last paragraph. WHY does mn let these attacks on Irish culture go? They I wouldn't if it was someone criticising Islamic funeral culture!

Half Irish that would have read!

I'm sorry for your loss - my mother died in 2014 so have experienced this.

It was all I could do to persuade my dad to even tell friends she'd died, as a) they lived far away from everyone they knew, except family and b) they hadn't even told anyone except family that she was ill. So the funeral was a bit of a shock to all concerned.

I'm slightly ashamed to admit now (although it didn't remotely concern me at the time) that I actively didn't want FIL and step-MIL to come to my mother's funeral. FIL would have been fine, he's lovely, but step-MIL is hard work. She is generally a lovely person but by God she needs a lot of emotional/social support and I thought 'No fucking way do I want to have to think about you at my mum's funeral.' So, they weren't asked (neither was MIL). Step-MIL did make a few PA comments afterwards about being excluded but FIL and DH (unbidden, let the record show) both had a word with her about dropping it and so she did.

Now onto your situation: if your parents aren't close (emotionally or geographically) to DH's family, then I wouldn't expect them to attend and wouldn't be offended by their absence. I'd expect a card and some considerate behaviour next time you see them though.

I am sorry, I haven't read the whole thread. However, from uncomfortable experience with DH's family, i have come to realise that there are family / culture-specific 'norms' around funerals. A bit like celebrating Christmas - each family has their own traditions which they see as 'the right way of doing things' but which may absolutely baffle others.

DH's family is of the 'everyone attends funerals, however distant the connection' tradition. DH nearly caused family meltdown when he assumed that he wasn't expected to attend the funeral of a cousin's husband. FiL attends at least a funeral a month, usually more - I could be mean and say it is his main form of social activity, but I will be more charitable and say that, in his family tradition, if you have any connection at all with the deceased, you are expected to attend. The funerals in that dfamily are more klike 'wakes' - the service is not the point, the main point is the large social gatehring afterwards.

My family is of a much more minimal funeral tradition - in fact until VERY recently (last 10-15 years), women did not attend family funerals at all. I attended my grandfather's funeral (one of about a dozen attendees) but that is the only family-connected funeral I have attended, and I would have caused significant offence had I been at those of my grandparents who died earlier. The point of the funeral in my (in the main very churchgoing) family is the service and committal. Tea and cake afterwards for those attendees who have travelled long distances is very much an afterthought, and is brief.

As you can imagine, this leads us to steer some quite interesting paths through funeral-related etiquette. I have to say that I rather hope FiL pre-deceases my parents, because the deep offence caused on all sides - to FiL when he realises that he isn't invited, and to my surviving parent should he just turn up - just doesn't bear thinking about!

I think it normal for inlaws to attend if possible. My step grandparents attended my grandfather's funeral last year, despite not knowing him particularly well.

I'm very sorry for your loss OP

I think what this thread shows is that the question of who should attend a funeral is very personal, and that people have wildly differing views about it. Perhaps your DH's family are of the school of thought that they wouldn't be needed. I haven't put that very well, what I mean is that they probably don't mean it personally against you, or disrespectfully, they're just enacting their perception of who attends funerals.

When my father died, my PIL and two sets of BIL/SIL came to his funeral. I was very touched that they had, but they did know my father and we all live very local to one another. If they hadn't known him, or had a long journey to make I would have understood.

Sorry what? No of course i didn't mean to be rude. i said i mentioned they were Irish because i understand in Irish culture it is normal to go to funerals and i assumed they were being 'normal' in what they expected to happen.

If you are taking offence to the singing, eating and banging on bit, i said that's a separate issue - because i obviously know that all Irish people don't do that. I actually know lots of Irish people who don't do that. Dh is quarter Irish, quarter Maltese and half scots and i know in those cultures big funerals with strangers are the norm.

MrsK - FiL is from an Irish background, which is the origin of his family's tradition around funerals. I certainly recognise the first part of your paragraph, about riding rough-shod (not with bad intent, simply oblivious to the fact that not everyone shares this tradition). Eating and drinking at the party after the funeral is, to him, the essence of the funeral. However, he does not sing, and does not reminisce about funerals back in Ireland - though he can compare the finer points of different funerals down the years for HOURS if allowed.

(Conversely, my family's 'no women' tradition is from their South Wales background)

I'd expect your PIL to be there unless it was exceptional like they were abroad, ill or there was a family rift that would cause more bad feeling than if they stayed away. Just one of them would be enough.

Did they send flowers?

Limited - why?

In my family tradition - which I am only so aware of because DH's is so different - it would be extraordinary, indeed rude, of PiL to attend a funeral UNLESS they saw the deceased regularly or had a close connection. And until very recently, it would have caused scandal for MiL and SiL to attend, because they are women....

I am not saying that your expectations are wrong in your family context, just that there can be other expectations that can be right in a different context.

my late DMs family were Irish, my late DFs family were English 'chapel'. Very different expectations around funerals, so i was lucky enough to grow up with no one idea of what was the 'normal' way to hold a funeral.

I recently advised a colleague about whether or not to go to another colleagues funeral, she wanted to because she had worked closely with him on some projects. She is Italian and he was English so she really didn't know whether it would be acceptable.

Looking at the funeral arrangements, and the wording, it was very clear that the family were genuinely wanting to include any colleague who wanted to go so she went (she was worried that they were just being very English and polite by inviting everyone and that the secret message was that people were not expected to go. She's used to strange English ways ). She said it was one of the most enjoyable things she'd ever experienced. He had planned it, including a sit down meal at the wake with some very good alcohol of his choosing.

There are no right and wrong ways to do this - the trick is to adapt to the way a particular family wants to do it - and for families to be very clear about what they want. No one should assume anything!

My inlaws attended my mothers funeral. At the time I couldn't have cared less whether they came or not and was quite irritated at having to give them attention.
But on reflection - it was two years ago now - I am quite touched that they came. They are quite elderly and it was a long, unfamiliar journey. They didn't know her that well but they wanted to pay respect and comfort me.
Nobody could actually provide any comfort - it was bloody awful - but they tried and that counts for something in my book.

Supposedly they come for you not depending on how well they knew your mother. But I am Irish though and not attending a funeral or sympathising is bad form.

Because I just would teacher.

I'd expect them to ask if it was okay to attend in case it was a funeral where people wanted only immediate family. I know that some people do, so in that situation, I have asked. Sometimes people wanted me, sometimes not.

By the same token I'd expect them to realise that even if it wasn't their tradition, it might be mine. It's not hard to use your imagination and ask a simple question respectfully.

I'd say yes and thank them. If they said they'd like to come but it would put them in exceptional hardship, or it would be awkward because of a feud, even with me, I'd thank them for their thoughtfulness and say that it might be best for them to stay away.

If I was feuding with the person and they were big enough to ask that question genuinely then I'd probably bury the hatchet. I don't know.

But I'd expect a conversation, a condolence card and flowers.

I wouldn't think that people just wanted to come to eat my sandwiches. Though funeral gatecrashers exist. This is probably one of the most extreme versions I've heard of but is probably not that common.

My SIL's wake was a jolly time, under the circumstances. Lots of friends, even some that just kept in Christmas card contact.

Laughter broke out at times and regret that she wasn't around to enjoy the lovely cake. She did like her cake.

I hate a lonely church at a funeral but other people are entitled to think otherwise.

"Because I just would teacher."

The point is, I just wouldn't - well, after all the shenanigans around DH's dfamily, I would now know to ask the question. But I have to think REALLY hard to remember that not everyone will understand that 'of course funerals are for those who knew the deceased well only, and there will only be tea and cakes, at the family home, for a few people who have travelled a long way'. My family would not think to spell out 'close family only', or call anyone, because the tradition is simply part of the culture. It is known.

Not everyone realises the extremes of different traditions there can be, and how 'I just would' can land you in all kinds of trouble (like the mere suggestion that DH would not take a day off work to attend the funeral of a cousin's husband who he had never met nearly caused us to become family pariahs)

Are most MN ers of Irish extraction or is it a fluke of the thread? :o

I guess nowadays people are generally very mobile and don't necessarily marry people from their own cultural/ religious/ ethnic / national etc etc etc background so it becomes necessary not to assume and to make your wishes known where possible.

I think there are probably as many people who would never in a million years expect to even consider attending funerals of people they didn't know as there are people who consider it rude not to.

The problem is that unlike some other things it's not an obvious culture clash and each side could consider the other rude/ overbearing/ cold / insensitive without ever realising that two sides of the family just had absolutely different funeral norms.

When my MiL dies, my parents did not even consider, for one moment, calling FiL to suggest they might come to the funeral.

It wasn't a matter of lack of imagination, simply of manners - it would seem, to them, the height of bad manners, and bad taste, to intrude upon a bereaved family when their connection as so distant and they had not met very often. To them, it would be like turning up at, or ringing to wonder whether they should turn up at, a wedding or a family Christmas uninvited.

They sent a card, and my mother treats DH as a son, not a son in law, because his mother is no longer with us. But attend the funeral, or call to see if they should attend? No. Their support for us - private, unostentatious - was to travel 200 miles to do childcare, unrequested, so we could both attend.

"The problem is that unlike some other things it's not an obvious culture clash and each side could consider the other rude/ overbearing/ cold / insensitive without ever realising that two sides of the family just had absolutely different funeral norms."

Exactly!

If anyone is concerned about the "etiquette"- for want of a better word, there is no need to be invited to the church, crematorium -whatever. Anyone can go. The invitation bit is to the committal, and to whatever celebration or wake or funeral tea follows. But you do not intrude on the bereaved family or expect to be talked to or "hosted" at all.