To think Dentists are the new Lawyers/Estate Agents

[dougieroseagain]

ie social pariahs.

I am trying to find a good dentist. Well, any dentist. We moved regions and I left behind my lovely dentist where my kids went free and I paid (as a private patients) really quite reasonable rates.

I am now trying to register in the new area and the rates are extortionate.

£29 for a kid's check up.
£110 for me. For a check up.

I found another dentist where it was £20 for a kid's check up but they wanted to sell me their plan which costs £5 a month. ie £60 a year. But my kids' teeth are fine - they don't have fillings and the previous dentist was delighted with their teeth. So why should I pay £60 a year when 2 check ups will cost £40 a year?

THIS is why sodding American dentists can afford to spend $35,000 killing a lion.

I have found a reasonably priced dentist about 20 miles from where we live, but there is a registration waiting list of 5 months. I'm not suprised - it's the only dentist in the area which still has NHS places for kids and the check ups are only £18 for an adult.

THIS IS WHY THE NATION'S TEETH ARE FALLING APART. Dentists are pricing normal people out of going to the dentist. Yes, I know they have to buy the equipment and keep the place hygienic. But £110 for a check up is ridiculous.

And of course, there are plenty of people not eligible for free nhs treatment, for whom the cost of a check up (even on the nhs) is just more money than they can afford. So they don't go, which leads to them developing worse problems and sometimes being taken off the nhs register.

I should also add that I'm happy to go private (as I always have done) but I would like my children to receive NHS treatment until 18/end of full time education.

Anyway, am logging off now. So long.

Childrens treatment is covered by the NHS you do not need to pay and if you're being asked to pay report them

I'm going to post one more thing to help clarify.

Treatment for under 18s (or anyone else exempt) is only free on the NHS if the dentist has an NHS contract. These are given out by the local commissioners. Not every dentist who wants one can get one and they are often not big enough (i.e don't contain enough "unite of dental activity"). If the dentist has run out of UDAs or has no NHS contract then he cannot treat anyone on the NHS and if he treats children for free, he is doing it from his own pocket (likely rolling the fee up in his adult private patient fees).

A UDA is a unit of activity for which you pay part and the government pay part. Not all dentists have the same UDA value. If your dentists contract has a UDA value set at say £30, for a check up, you will pay £18.80 of that and the government will pay £11.20.

Same for fillings, three UDAs = £90, you pay £51.30, the govt pay £38.70

And the same for 12 UDAs.

That is how NHS payment works.

Private dentists are private businesses, if they can't get or don't want an NHS contract then they won't treat kids for free.

Gobbolino, you've the patience of a saint.

If you are an associate, you will probably get paid 40-50% of the UDA value so a check up will net you £12-£15. Gross.

If you are an associate, you will probably get paid 40-50% of the UDA value so a check up will net you £12-£15. Gross.

My kids get their check ups done in less than 5 minutes each. So, that's £24 to £30 for 10 minutes work. The only thing cross about that is that public funds are funding someone to be paid, say, £96 to £120 an hour (assuming 8 check ups an hour). Even if I've over estimated how many will be done in an hour (and I don't think I have, but lets say they can only do 4 check ups an hour), that's still £48-£60 an hour. £336-£420 a day. £1680 - £2100 a week.

I'm sure that up and down the country there are people making placards for the poor NHS dentists.

cross gross

Except that's not how it works. I'm
Not going to get drawn back into this thread as there are too many people who think they know how being an NHS dentist works.

Don't forget they are sd employed, also entitled to holidays and even get ill. Of course there's then the exempt family of six who fail to turn up.

Collaborate, do tell, does it cost you £10k to stay in work every year?
Registration, indemnity, CPD...

If they are an Associate they are employed. Indemnity and CPD and Registration will all be covered by their employer. that is why I presume you say they will only get 40-50%. You've already taken practice overheads in to account.

On the most conservative estimate they would gross £75600 per annum. That assumes working 45 weeks a year. So One week for education and 6 weeks for holidays. More than most people get. On the most optimistic of guesses they would get £189,000 per annum. Now, I'm sure that they won't get that much, but a quick search online shows salaries between £60-90k. www.indeed.co.uk/Associate-Dentist-jobs

This practice in Barnsley is offering £90,000 per annum. They're looking for a 1yr qualified dentist, who would get £12 per UDA www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/Derek-The-Dentist/jobs/Dental-Associate-97324ec80e1dab16?q=Associate+Dentist

So don't try and pretend they're underpaid.

f they are an Associate they are employed. Indemnity and CPD and Registration will all be covered by their employer. that is why I presume you say they will only get 40-50%

Hahaaa. Points and laughs at collaborate for the most uninformed post I have ever read on MN. Hahaaaahaa. Brilliant. Where the fuck did you hear that?

You're a hoot. Nice one. Definitely my last post on this thread.

OK. So when you say gross you don't mean pre-tax? Do you mean turnover? Do be clear.

So you'll take £10k off those figures in my previous post. £50-80kpa for a 1yr qualified dentist. You say they're poorly paid. I say they're overpaid. That's still 2-3 times the average salary.

The Health and Social Care Information Centre did a report in 2011. This is what they said:

Dental Earnings and Expenses, England and Wales, 2009/10 shows that in 2009/10, self employed primary care dentists earned on average £84,900 in taxable income, a 5.2 per cent decrease compared to the 2008/09 average of £89,600.

The report considers the earnings and expenses of self-employed, full and part-time primary care dentists who undertook some NHS work in England or Wales in the year, and covers both their NHS and private income. It also shows that in 2009/10:

About 1.5 per cent of dentists (approximately 310) earned a taxable income of £300,000 or more, while the majority (55.8 per cent) earned a taxable income of less than £75,000.
Dentists who worked in a practice but who did not hold a contract with a Primary Care Trust (PCT) in England or Local Health Board (LHB) in Wales, earned on average £65,600 in taxable income, a 3.1 per cent decrease compared to the 2008/09 average of £67,800.
Practising dentists who held a contract with a PCT or LHB to provide NHS dental services earned on average £128,000 in taxable income. Statistically, this is not significantly different to the average of £131,000 earned in 2008/09.

mrsmorton . Nearly pissed my pregnant self laughing. Associate, employed! Ha fucking ha! Holiday pay? Sick pay? Tax, insurance, subscriptions, indemnity, registration. Paid for? Fuck the fuck off collaborate. The job in Barnsley will be paying well because the work load is huge, and possibly UDA value or % to the associate has been set unusually high to tempt people to an otherwise unattractive post.
And yes, check ups on dentally fit children can be relatively lucrative. It makes up a little for the work we do out of our own pockets. Like the 3 hours spent on a root canal and crown, which on average would pay an associate £120 quid, less income tax, expenses like indemnity, registration etc. Oh and the lab bill, probably £15 if they're on a 50/50 arrangement with the practice owner.

So the survey conclusion that there's an average income of £128,000 for dentists with a PCT contract is inaccurate then?

I haven't read the entire thread but I think some of the costs here are cheap. i love my dentist but he is not cheap. Quite attractive too which isn't relevant.

My children's dentist has a brain the size of a planet. He has good inter personal skills as well as lots of training and the best equipment money can buy. I see a different private dentist who is also excellent, but offers a more basic service. The NHS dentist we used to see was completely rushed off his feet. He was stressed out and it showed. He was not a bad dentist, but could not cope with his work load.

Dentistry is an art form and its never going to be cheap. Many people on this thread pay more for their broadband than they do for their dentistry.

Fuck the fuck off collaborate So argues the modern voice of dentistry. Nice.

Only public dentists here in Jersey are for the under 12's and over 65's.

Privte dentists start at £24 for a check up

They certainly seem to be rather rude, these dentists. I suppose the patient cannot normally talk back.

collaborate - I can absolutely assure you from knowledge of how my DH has practiced prior to purchasing a practice and how he operates know as a practice owner and as an employment lawyer that the very, very vast majority of associates are self-employed so the position as set out in my earlier posts re: indemnity insurance etc is correct. I only know two who are not: one is SIL who is a dentist in the army and thus an army officer and another one who is a hospital consultant.

Do you know what - I'm giving up on this thread. I think lots of people have tried to provide factual information about how practices are run/how dentists are remunerated and how NHS dentistry works generally to hopefully try and explain Why things are the way they are. It's a bit annoying to see all of that information totally ignored and more of the same factual inaccuracies re-iterated again and again

I've yet to have anyone come back at me over the figures I've come out with today. Happy to have a discussion about it. I don't think it needs to be said that there's a difference between turnover and profit, What business doesn't have overheard? That's why no one takes home the UDA. Mrs Morton says take off 50-60%, then adds a further £10k for insurance and suchlike. The only P+L I ever saw was for a dentist clearing £179k in taxable income - nearly all NHS work around 8 years ago. I've linked to job adverts with incomes ranging from £60-90k a year.

Would any dentists like to share their annual taxable income?

I don't say teeth are a lifestyle choice - dougierose. You said teeth are a lifestyle choice too.

My point is that most people on this thread want more access to NHS dentistry. They won't accept that the government (basically - it's devolved sir ugh ally to Local Aithirty Teams)are essentially the body that contract for that in their behalf and they only contract for a certain amount. So the solution seems to be that NHS dentists work over and above those contracts for free and should only earn a capped amount of 35k. I can really see people queuing up for that job

And - for the avoidance of doubt - my DH is not solely an NHS dentist. He has a mixed private and NHS practice and cadres out his tongue tie work on a solely private basis. So we're hardly biased

Gobbo deliberately misses the point AGAIN.
Gobbo takes comments out of context for her own agenda.

beats head against wall

Loved your MIL thread, by the way. How did the party go in the end?

collaborate - you've not actually noted my earlier point regarding capital payments on any business loans which don't show up on P&L accounts. Or the various points made by other dentists.

Further, do you now accept the point about the self-employment status of most dentists?

We can hardly have a discussion if it's one way and I don't think that seeing the P&L accounts of one dentist in matrimonial proceedings a number of years ago is illustrative - particularly as you've failed to factor in the capital payments on business loans

i can assure you as an associate dentist i am not employed, I don't get 6 weeks holiday let alone paid, indemnity,CPD, professional subscriptions and ARF are paid for by me, I don't get paid sick leave. I work 5 days a week and I don't get nearly the amount of money that is being quoted on here.