To think Dentists are the new Lawyers/Estate Agents

[dougieroseagain]

ie social pariahs.

I am trying to find a good dentist. Well, any dentist. We moved regions and I left behind my lovely dentist where my kids went free and I paid (as a private patients) really quite reasonable rates.

I am now trying to register in the new area and the rates are extortionate.

£29 for a kid's check up.
£110 for me. For a check up.

I found another dentist where it was £20 for a kid's check up but they wanted to sell me their plan which costs £5 a month. ie £60 a year. But my kids' teeth are fine - they don't have fillings and the previous dentist was delighted with their teeth. So why should I pay £60 a year when 2 check ups will cost £40 a year?

THIS is why sodding American dentists can afford to spend $35,000 killing a lion.

I have found a reasonably priced dentist about 20 miles from where we live, but there is a registration waiting list of 5 months. I'm not suprised - it's the only dentist in the area which still has NHS places for kids and the check ups are only £18 for an adult.

THIS IS WHY THE NATION'S TEETH ARE FALLING APART. Dentists are pricing normal people out of going to the dentist. Yes, I know they have to buy the equipment and keep the place hygienic. But £110 for a check up is ridiculous.

Yes - as I said earlier, DH is one of the few of his university cohort still carrying out NHS work. The vast majority are private dentists. They don't do NHS work as it isn't profitable.

We are talking about the profitability of NHS work and why dentists don't do it.

I don't have any problem with private dentists charging whatever the market supports - but I didn't realise the argument extends to even private dentists only being allowed to earn a capped amount.

I hope that's clear to you now but do please let me know if there is anything else you want to clarify after further advance searching of my posts

Gobbo I think what you really mean is that you think it's not profitable enough. Unless you can contradict the figures I provided earlier that show an average income of at least £65,000, I'm going to have to assume that you think that isn't enough. And there's no point other posters telling me that they earn less doing part time dentistry while paying full time overheads. Such a business model is seldom going to be sensible or viable.

collaborate - I think the best thing to do is for you to go to university for 5 years to do a dental degree and then do your VT year

Then start in general practice and look for an NHS practice to buy. Start evaluating the contracts vis a vis your overheads.

You're clearly not willing to take on board

Sorry - posted too soon

Your stats are a combination of contract income (which is practice income) as has been explained in huge detail up the thread so I'm not reiterating why that is not what the dentist takes home and from a period where the old contracts were in force

These are not relevant comparators.

Anyway - I really am leaving this thread now. It's clear that not only are the dentists and lawyers posting on here "social pariahs" we're liars too and nothing that I can explain or do is going to change that. But hopefully the info will be useful for other folk reading who might be wondering what the position is.

Well, I'm talking about private dentists who charge £110 for an adult check up and £ 48 for a student check up, holding people to ransom because NHS work isn't profitable.

Good luck, gobbo - just that, good luck.

What I find interesting about this thread is that the YANBUs are from decent people trying to get their teeth checked and the YABUs are from dentists themselves who feel very hard done by.

Private dentists near me don't charge patients to ransom. I got charged £72 for a scale and clean and check up including x Rays. Parts of the country that charge £110 are within an hour's drive of my dental practice. There is nothing to stop people getting on the motorway and driving to somewhere a little cheaper.

Treating your children for free OP is a marketing ploy. It was introduced by practices when they opted out of the NHS to keep their adult (profitable) patients. Some practices negotiated child only contracts with the NHS historically but these were not allowed in many areas in the new contract.

My hairdresser doesn't offer to do my DS hair for free just because I have my hair cut regularly. Tesco don't offer to feed him for free because I buy most of my groceries there. Neither do Macdonalds when I buy an adult meal.

I don't think you're being unreasonable, but if you can't find an NHS dentist maybe it has more to do with your postcode than dentists not wanting to work in the NHS. The total NHS contract size for each commissioning area was determined in 2006. If there were few NHS practices in your area back then then no new ones will have opened since then.

I receive about one letter a month, re selling my practice which has a reasonably sized NHS contract, from young dentists desperate to get a foot in the door. You cannot work in the NHS without a performer number. You can't get a performer number unless you have a job with a practice which has an NHS contract. It takes about 4 months for a performer number to be processed. It's no wonder that practice owners will only look for dentists with performer numbers when recruiting. It's very much a closed market at present.

I'm a YABU , I think I'm a decent person and I'm not a dentist. Nor am I related to any dentists

Well not yet, until I get all my kids through dental school ........

"I receive about one letter a month, re selling my practice which has a reasonably sized NHS contract, from young dentists desperate to get a foot in the door. You cannot work in the NHS without a performer number. You can't get a performer number unless you have a job with a practice which has an NHS contract. It takes about 4 months for a performer number to be processed. It's no wonder that practice owners will only look for dentists with performer numbers when recruiting. It's very much a closed market at present."

That is a serious issue that needs addressing. There is no point in training young dentists and then making it next to impossible for them to work for the NHS. All dental graduates in the UK should be issued with a performer number upon graduation.

Can you explain this? Is it not possible for a young dentist to join an NHS firm which has an NHS contract, as an employee, and thus get the performer number? My family goes to an NHS practice, and they are short of dentists - they're desperately trying to recruit but can't find anyone. As it is, most of the dentists there are from Poland. Why are English dentists not joining them? There is a 3 month waiting list for an appointment, because they can't recruit enough dentists.

You can't get a performer number unless you have a job with a practice which has an NHS contract

My understanding is that you can't do any NHS work without a performer number. You can apply for a performer number while doing solely private work and be admitted to the performers list providing you fulfil all the criteria.

The regulations are the same as for other performers as its a standard application form. So you need to be able to provide references from recent employment, but this can be wholly private.

The fact that young dentists are forced to start off in private practice does nothing to help the nhs. Surely a university tutor should be able to provide an acceptable reference. Surely young dentists do work experience.

UK dental graduates have to do a foundation year, there aren't sufficient foundation year places. Some dentists have tried to set up an equivalent scheme in private practice to enable dentists to get a number but the DoH said no way.

EU dental graduates don't have to do a foundation year... they aren't better than us, they just don't have to do one so they are cheap to employ and can start work the day after they graduate dental school.

189 dental graduates couldn't get a training place this year... they will never be able to hold a performers number!

I managed to get a performers number whilst not working under the NHS but it took me almost a year. People get fed up of that sort of bureaucracy and fuck off to Australia/private practice.

That's 189 out of approx 1170 dental graduates according to my source.

Outrageous, FWIW I did post a petition on here a while ago asking for support to get this unfairness debated in parliament but the good old "dentists are money grabbing bastards who don't need our help" seemed to win the day. Ho hum.

"Outrageous, FWIW I did post a petition on here a while ago asking for support to get this unfairness debated in parliament but the good old "dentists are money grabbing bastards who don't need our help" seemed to win the day. Ho hum."

I have every sympathy. From what you are saying it would be better fro an aspiring dentist to go to dental school in Hungry than the UK. I will sign your petition if you give me a link.

It was a parliamentary discussion one that will have expired now. I post on a dentist only forum and far from being the rabid money grabbers we are thought of as here, most are genuinely invested in training the younger generation and providing ethical dentistry, particularly for this who deserve it but are let down by the paucity of NHS funding.

The guy who was trying to set up the private equivalent invested a huge amount of time and money and was told "no" with no reasoning. This would have been a scheme, at no cost to the NHS, t provide dentists who would work at least partly, under the NHS. What's not to like?

The government don't want NHS dentistry.

Mrsmorton - in scotland you can get an assistant number for a dentistjoining a practice who is working under a principal and paid a salary . An overseas dentist who has not done a VDP has to work under supervision

You can also get a trainer number for your trainee , and use it again each year as the trainee moves on .