To think Dentists are the new Lawyers/Estate Agents

[dougieroseagain]

ie social pariahs.

I am trying to find a good dentist. Well, any dentist. We moved regions and I left behind my lovely dentist where my kids went free and I paid (as a private patients) really quite reasonable rates.

I am now trying to register in the new area and the rates are extortionate.

£29 for a kid's check up.
£110 for me. For a check up.

I found another dentist where it was £20 for a kid's check up but they wanted to sell me their plan which costs £5 a month. ie £60 a year. But my kids' teeth are fine - they don't have fillings and the previous dentist was delighted with their teeth. So why should I pay £60 a year when 2 check ups will cost £40 a year?

THIS is why sodding American dentists can afford to spend $35,000 killing a lion.

I have found a reasonably priced dentist about 20 miles from where we live, but there is a registration waiting list of 5 months. I'm not suprised - it's the only dentist in the area which still has NHS places for kids and the check ups are only £18 for an adult.

THIS IS WHY THE NATION'S TEETH ARE FALLING APART. Dentists are pricing normal people out of going to the dentist. Yes, I know they have to buy the equipment and keep the place hygienic. But £110 for a check up is ridiculous.

This happened to us and do has reg at one at Sainsburys!! He pays £99 year for 4 appt and out some is free till 10 I think
I can't use maternity card tho

Looks like Mrsmorton's been on the gin again.

Out of curiosity what proportion of tooth decay is not caused by an underlying health problem like weak enamel or taking particular medications. My son had a lot of antibiotics as a baby and a toddler. Do you think this link might explain why his baby teeth were a mess, but my son has perfect adult teeth at the age of 13.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4297462.stm

That's great collaborate

Because I'm going to make sure all my kids become dentists , as it's such an easy and lucrative career

it's such an easy and lucrative career
I've never said it's easy. I'm just calling out the lies on this thread that dentists actually lose money on NHS work. Just look at my previous posts for the evidence of what they actually earn.

I suspect many do lose money on NHS work but it could be like lawyers and wills - you might do a will at a loss but get that person's £20m a year profit business as a corporate client. Do the filling free and get the £30k of cosmetic dentistry.

How do you account for the practices in deprived areas where all patients are treated on the NHS and none can afford expensive treatment, on the NHS or otherwise? They wouldn't exist unless they made a profit.

I know of one GP who works in a deprived area and her practice gets paid more than most by the NHS because her patients are in worse health than the average. They need to pay more to attract the GPs to open a surgery there (I think they need more doctors per surgery or fewer patients to be able to cope with the demand for services). Presumably with dentists a practice will need more UDIs if traditionally teeth that area have been in poor condition compared to other areas.

I'd rather pay a dentist a decent price than a dodgy builder. Dentists have been to university for years after competing against some of the brightest people in the country to get onto a course and having brilliant marks in maths and science, have to have practical dexterity skills, have to pay for extensive professional insurance, are overseen by a professional practice body whom you can complain to about them if things go wrong. Builders, plumbers, etc might have an NVQ if you're lucky, might have a record of failed businesses behind them if you're not, and if complain about them you will be treated as if you're stupid because you're not a man.

Yes its a shame the NHS doesn't cover your whole body. But dental costs are always treated differently from other health costs, even in countries which have private insurance based schemes. Even high tax Norway's pretty crappy actually NHS equivalent doesn't include dental treatment.

But mumsnet seems quite the repository for people looking for something for nothing. Theres another thread where someone spent all of their redundancy payment, doesn't want to work and is blaming landlords for their failure to be able to afford to buy a home.

I've never said that I, personally, want something for nothing. I've been a private patient since I was 21. But I DO expect my children to have free check ups, especially as neither of them have a filling in their heads.

Who thinks NHS dentistry is something for nothing? Taxes pay for it. We all pay for it.

Lol at a barrister calling dentists overpaid! Collaborate, I've no idea how much you earn, but if it's not very much I'm sure you know plenty of barristers earning a lot of money. Why should dentists be any different? Maybe you should have gone into dentistry instead of law?

collaborate The UDA allocation and values were determined on a practice by practice (and dentist by dentist) basis at the introduction of the new GDS contract in April 2006. In cases of historically high numbers of treatment plans there would have been a high allocation of UDAs. In cases where the treatment plans were of high high value (ie included lots of treatment) the UDA value may have been higher than average. So in areas where need was high then there was theoretically an incentive to meet that need. If a practice wanted to increase the amount of treatment they could provide, they had to tender for a bigger contract: this is why it didn't improve access. Because the PCTs wouldn't increase the UDA allocation as it would cost them money. In 2009/10 I reached my UDA allocation in December. Which left me unable to provide any further treatment until April. It wasn't mismanagement. It was just a full appointment book. Luckily for me and my patients a colleague was behind on their UDAs, so we reached an agreement where I took some of his UDAs. But the overall number of UDAs provided by the practice did not increase so it did not improve access. And if there had not been UDAs going spare I would have been doing nothing for 3 months (well, 2 months as I went on mat leave at the end of February).

unfortunately practices in deprived areas can be soul destroying places to work (violence and crime against people and property in the practice), high levels of missed appointments etc etc. I started my career in such an area. They do indeed make a profit, but no more than one in a more affluent area. They are not subsidised by their private patients as there are none. (I remember my boss explaining that private patients were such a double edged sword: they enabled him to keep on the NHS ones, but they also kept him away from them, and required a level of decor and "bells and whistles" that he could not provide). There is little opportunity for "easy" UDAs. Actually as an associate it's exactly the sort of dentistry I like to do: it's health care not cosmetic. Another thread though.....

It's interesting to note that no one has sprung to the defence of Estate Agents yet...

It's all just a free market. If people think dentists are overpaid become a dentist if you can manage it. In most professions some people make a lot of money and a good few are somewhere in the middle and I am sure dentistry is much the same.

I have never had a problem with NHS denstiry all my life.

Colaborate the dentist you persist on referring to in your posts was working under the old GDC contract where we were paid fee per item. If you worked hard under this contract you could earn a large amount of money. You also stated he was one of three partners and may well have had a large number of associates working for the partnership. His gross income would have included the profit made from the associate licence fees ie what is left after practices expenses are deducted.
He may well have spent a lot of his time doing large amounts of crowns which was possible on the old contract. We used to be paid per crown or per unit. So it was not unusual to do full mouth crowns or bridge work and be paid several thousand pounds when the patient only had to contribute £300. Now we get paid the same amount of money whether we do one crown or ten crowns. It would be like asking a double glazing firm to replace the windows of a small mansion for the same price as they would for a two up two down terrace. We are in the real business world not the la la land the NHS managers inhabit.
The new contract was concocted to save the NHS vast amounts of money under the guise of reducing over prescription. Fee per item systems encourage over prescription. Interestingly the only area where fee per item is charged now is in private dentistry.
I know plenty of NHS dentists who would have been earning the sort of figures you are throwing around! but that would have been 10 yrs ago. They are all working in the private sector now.

I recognise what Willdoitinaminute and Bonzo77 are saying as it sounds exactly how legal aid was changed a few years ago. Strict limits on the number of matter starts and standard fees under them irrespective of how much work you actually end up doing.

Can I just make one thing clear though. All I'm posting for is against those who have claimed that dentists lose money doing NHS work. They don't. They make less than they used to.

IIRC the dentist whose accounts I saw had one associate in his practice. And yes, it was one of the old contracts.

We make a loss on some treatment plans. Break even on others, profit on the rest. Profit overall one hopes. Because without any overall profit how are we supposed to live??

Exactly bonzo. Plus, I said that dentists can lose money carrying out NHS treatmen pt because of the cost of their overheads vis a vis the money coming in from their NHS contract.

Despite the fact I've explained very clearly why that is, I'm going to have one last go using very short sentences and some imaginary figures as an example so hopefully the hard of understanding will get it

You have an NHS practice. Practically everyone at that oractice is an exempt patient. This means they don't pay for any of their NHS treatment. They don't have any money to pay for private treatment.

The denists sole source of income is an NHS contract. That makes the dentist £10 of income a year. However the costs of running the practice (all set out above on numerous occasions) are £11 a year. At the end of the year, the dentist doesn't have any money as £10 - £11 = £-1. Therefore not only is the practice owner working for free they actually owe £1.

That is why so many dentists stopped doing NHS work when the current contracts came into effect and why - when new contracts are issued fir tender - lots of dentists do the (relatively simple) sums of looking at what they would be paid minus their overheads and decide they wouldn't make any money so they don't tender for the contract

Then people can't get NHS treatment in their area and are in the Daily Mail with a sad face or on mumsnet saying that dentists are social pariahs.

...and here we are

lifestyle choice too.

Sorry re: above. Mispost

But a final point collaborate. Stop misrepresenting posters in this thread. No one on this thread has said that all NHS work is unprofitable. What has been said is that a lot of dentists don't want to carry out NHS work because it is not profitable. That is for the reasons that have been cited umpty million times on this thread

I'm personally quite interested in how exactly you evaluate whether it is worth carrying out legal work? Do you not carry out the same exercise of evaluating what you will be paid versus what your costs will be? It's pretty basic stuff for anyone running a business (even working as a sole practitioner) or involved in the running of a department.

Dentistry in America is a terrible racket. They want you to bring two year olds to the dentist for exams. Each new dentist wants to replace the work of the last. Very few offer transparent pricing quotes. My mother is the only person in my family with decent teeth. I'm 45, and have had five root canals.

There is nothing wrong with checking a 2 year olds teeth. They can get decay too.

I'm in the US and have changed dentists a lot due to moves. I also had orthodontia as an adult. I have never had a dentist want to redo work done by a previous dentist.

But Gobbo - on a previous thread you say, and I quote:

"When we go to dentist weddings, where incidentally they all seem to inter-marry each other, they're all hanging about the car park admiring each other's cars."

I take it they're not looking at Ford Fiestas?