To think Dentists are the new Lawyers/Estate Agents

[dougieroseagain]

ie social pariahs.

I am trying to find a good dentist. Well, any dentist. We moved regions and I left behind my lovely dentist where my kids went free and I paid (as a private patients) really quite reasonable rates.

I am now trying to register in the new area and the rates are extortionate.

£29 for a kid's check up.
£110 for me. For a check up.

I found another dentist where it was £20 for a kid's check up but they wanted to sell me their plan which costs £5 a month. ie £60 a year. But my kids' teeth are fine - they don't have fillings and the previous dentist was delighted with their teeth. So why should I pay £60 a year when 2 check ups will cost £40 a year?

THIS is why sodding American dentists can afford to spend $35,000 killing a lion.

I have found a reasonably priced dentist about 20 miles from where we live, but there is a registration waiting list of 5 months. I'm not suprised - it's the only dentist in the area which still has NHS places for kids and the check ups are only £18 for an adult.

THIS IS WHY THE NATION'S TEETH ARE FALLING APART. Dentists are pricing normal people out of going to the dentist. Yes, I know they have to buy the equipment and keep the place hygienic. But £110 for a check up is ridiculous.

Nope. That figure might well be accurate for contract holders. collaborate having a contract means you are the practice owner. They then subcontract out some/ all of the work out to associates. Most dentists are not contract holders. Most are associates. On far less money. Who provide at least some profit for the contract holders.

I can't see why you think your personal experience of one single dentist is representative of every single dentist in England and Wales. You have several dentists here whose experience is very different. Or are you calling us liars?

See I think some people here don't have and don't want all the facts. And live in a cloud cuckoo land where everyone earns the same, and no one has to pay for their health care or take responsibility for their well being.

My taxable income: nil. I don't earn enough to pay any. 12 year old car: check. Kids in state education: check. Ineligible for any benefits due to DHs income which falls just outside the threshold for CB etc: check. Holidays at Butlins booked a year in advance to make it affordable: check. Clothes from h&m: check. No point working more hours as any extra cash will be swallowed by childcare and other expenses. Just like lots of other people. Not hard done by, but hardly raking it in.

collaborate - you've not actually noted my earlier point regarding capital payments on any business loans which don't show up on P&L accounts. Or the various points made by other dentists.

Further, do you now accept the point about the self-employment status of most dentists?

I accept the point about capital repayments. However, those repayments don't simply disappear. They are realised on retirement in the main.

I also accept that most associates will be self-employed. I hadn't realised they would have various overheads to pay, but a PP, Mrsmorton, has suggested we should deduct £10,000 for this. I have done so, and based on her figures have suggested how much such a dentist might be able to earn. I have provided links to job vacancies. The report I quoted on the previous page says that dentists working in a practice who do not hold a contract (presumably an associate) earn an average of £65000 pa taxable income. that means after all overheads have been paid. If all overheads come to £10,000 that suggests a turnover of £75,000. This was the first figure given in my post at 14:17:49.

None of the dentists posting on this thread have said what their income, prior to deduction of pension contributions, is, according to tax returns, except for bonzo77. Out of interest Bonzo, how many days/hours a week do you work for that?

What's the relevance of their income? As has been explained previously (quite a few times), it's dependent on UDA values (if they do NHS work)/how many days a week they work/what the profit sharing arrangement is with the principal (if they are associates)/what the cost of doing business is in the area they live/lab bills. It's multi-factorial

I'm assuming you're a lawyer like me? At the last firm I worked at (large international) the top grossing equity partner was on around 950k. That does not mean that every other lawyer in the firm was earning that or every other lawyer in the UK was.

Re: retirement - the value of a practice is pretty much entirely based on the good will and NHS contract (if there is one). Plus freehold value, if relevant. If your NHS contract disappears or the value is reduced or your private patients drift away, you're basically left with some chairs, some dental equipment and a fuck ton of magazine subscriptions. It's not worthy very much. So it's not correct to say it is a guaranteed investment.

Believe me - I've been round every bank with a business plan with DH when we were looking for finance to buy his current practice. It is certainly not seen as a safe bet by banks for lending purposes.

Have you told us your income Collaborate? No? So why should I tell you mine?

What's the relevance of their income?

err.... This was one of your early posts: The reason a lot of dentists don't want to do NHS work is it actually costs them to do as the contract values are so poor. Are you honestly saying that not only should dentists work for free, they should take on unprofitable contracts and subsidise patients?

It was because of that comment that I felt I should contribute what I knew the income of one NHS dentist to be.

I have no problem with dentists refusing to do NHS work BTW. What the state expects to get away with paying to the professions it relies on to deliver basic services is sometimes shocking. However it's not just dentists. It's lawyers, social workers, and many others.

In 2009 Liberty were reporting that the average salary paid to a legal aid lawyer was £25,000. Since then, fee rates have reduced by 10%, and by even more in real terms. www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/justice-and-fair-trials/legal-aid

But what area was he working in? Had he inherited a practice?

What contract with the NHS did he have? The contract even 10 years ago was a totally different beast to what it is now and what is likely to be introduced in the next 12 months

You must see that one example (and not meaning to be rude but it was hardly a forensic examination of the P&L accounts if you didn't factor in the capital repayments and the fact that the P&L doesn't actually show what he was personally drawing - just the practice figures) from 10 years ago is hardly illustrative of the state of the profession today.

Plus - dental income as a bald figure isn't going to help either

My point was that many dentists don't want to carry out NHS work as the value of the contract doesn't make it profitable. Therefore, if I came in and posted my DH's income which includes quite a big element of private work plus a standard rate payment for the access centre. (Plus massive deductions for loan repayments and investment How does that help bench mark the relative values of NHS contracts?

We actually did have the accounts forensically examined (as to goodwill). By one of the top accountants recommended by the BDA.

He didn't inherit a practice.

I accept that over time the government will have reduced funding.

Have you told us your income Collaborate? No? So why should I tell you mine? This thread is about dentists, not lawyers. I am only on this thread as it was suggested by gobblin that dentists make a loss on NHS work. They don't.

Mechanics are usually better at their jobs (in my experience).

I agree that private work will subsidise the NHS work. What the government are willing to pay in these areas is a joke.

Title of the thread is "AIBU to think dentists are the new lawyers/ estate agents" ergo not just about dentists.

collaborate - on what basis can you possibly say that dentists do not make a loss on NHS work?

How many NHS contracts have you personally valued to decide whether to buy a practice? How many tenders have you evaluated to decide whether it's worthwhile (ie profitable) to tender for?

If you have a shit UDA rate and a load of overheads, of course it's not profitable. Why do you think previously people have been queuing round the block to join new NHS practices - because their previous ones have shut down as it wasn't profitable to carry out the work

I'm actually amazed that you advised your client to have the accounts forensically examined bearing in mind the fact that you seem to be a manifest expert in this area not

You make the most sweeping of generalisations with no evidential basis at all.

Do most people actually go to the dentist twice a year?

I think it's avout 3 years since I've been. The dc are 5 and 7 and only ever been once.

Hands gobbolino chaperones her to sofa. Chats about shit. No point, they don't want to know, they've made their mind up. Let them believe the bollocks they want to believe. This is the only night off before access, remember!!!

Ignores collaborate who is being obtuse and has their mind made up along with many others on this thread.

I haven't read the full thread so apologies.

I understand here in Scotland it isn't as bad finding a dentist as it is in England which I am very grateful for

I did see a couple of months ago an article that a third of students as Aberdeen dental school failed last year and patients were actually harmed so I think at some point in the future we will struggle with good quality dentists

Can I just say Mrsmorton, bonzo and Gobbolino that I feel your pain regarding the "head-desk-head-desk" asapects of this thread?

It's not Uknown Country for my profession to be getting lambasted on here too... (teacher)

And I still think parents have the most responsibility for educating their children about dental hygiene and poor diet choices. If they ignore the advice of dentists (which many do) then don't run about bleating about "education".
The information isn't exactly hidden is it?

Blue - if students were failed then that's good Quality Assurance by the GDC surely

Patients who go to Dental Teaching Hospitals know they are case studies, and being treated by students! It's free - that's why they go!

Thank you for coming to find me mrsmorton - this thread is becoming a very bad habit.

necks wine straight out of the bottle. in fact, fuck the wine, it's champers all round as I never now need to read any more interminable tender documents to evaluate. Ever. The oracle has spoken: all NHS dental work is profitable!

I will be on the BDA's doorstep first thing on Monday morning, shouting, "Have you heard the good news!"

I can hardly wait until that lazy bastard, otherwise known as DH gets home to tell him. He's off playing golf at the moment. Oh no, wait, he's actually finishing off his referrals.

This thread has been very enlightening for me.

I've actually discovered I'm a sadomasochist.

I never knew that until today

Gobbo:
Does he earn over the average wage - roughly £27K?

Gobbo leave!!! Don't bite.