To think Dentists are the new Lawyers/Estate Agents

[dougieroseagain]

ie social pariahs.

I am trying to find a good dentist. Well, any dentist. We moved regions and I left behind my lovely dentist where my kids went free and I paid (as a private patients) really quite reasonable rates.

I am now trying to register in the new area and the rates are extortionate.

£29 for a kid's check up.
£110 for me. For a check up.

I found another dentist where it was £20 for a kid's check up but they wanted to sell me their plan which costs £5 a month. ie £60 a year. But my kids' teeth are fine - they don't have fillings and the previous dentist was delighted with their teeth. So why should I pay £60 a year when 2 check ups will cost £40 a year?

THIS is why sodding American dentists can afford to spend $35,000 killing a lion.

I have found a reasonably priced dentist about 20 miles from where we live, but there is a registration waiting list of 5 months. I'm not suprised - it's the only dentist in the area which still has NHS places for kids and the check ups are only £18 for an adult.

THIS IS WHY THE NATION'S TEETH ARE FALLING APART. Dentists are pricing normal people out of going to the dentist. Yes, I know they have to buy the equipment and keep the place hygienic. But £110 for a check up is ridiculous.

a trick I used was to join as a private patient, then ask to be transferred to NHS after the first treatment. It worked!

I actually think the OP is right!

This should be part of the NHS. We pay enough damn tax and it has somehow been "overlooked".

Are teeth seen as being unnecessary then? When in actual fact dental/gum decay can lead to many health issues.

Every dentist SHOULD be made to take on a certain amount of NHS patients. Its a blood exploited area of health.

I type to fast for laptop sometimes bloody of course.

Mrs - no idea of what exactly? I've proposed annual take home pay of £65K, outside of London / SE. That is almost 3 times the average salary (which includes London and SE).

My wisdom teeth are starting to come through and really hurting, but the waiting lists for all the local dentists are so long I don't have a hope in hell of getting seen, and then paying whatever for at least two wisdom tooth extractions will just be one expense I can't cover without saving for a good couple of months :(

People expect so much from the state. I bet those who think dentistry should be part of the NHS (which some of it is) don't earn vast amounts, therefore do not even begin to cover what they take from the state. Yes, I know it's not about what you put in but let's be vaguely realistic, people!

Exactly whystannis. Its disgusting that these people think they are elite and as I said previously they SHOULD be made to take others that cant afford their extortionate prices on board.

crusts do you think the NHS put enough money into dental services? Bear in mind that many many dentists are turned down when they ask for more funding to be allocated to providing NHS care?

If the commissioners say "No", which they often do if the practice is too small, what should the dentist do? Give up work so as not to offend gunpowder? Carry on with private work? Provide treatment for free?

Dental decay is almost 100% preventable, as is gum disease, we have already acknowledged on this thread that there are a number of systemic issues which can contribute to dental problems. We aren't talking about them, we are talking about the 99% of dental problems which are self inflicted. When I spend 10 minutes explaining to someone about the stephan curve and then watch them from my surgery go to the shop (and yes I can see this) and buy a can of fanta, I generally fell like I'm wasting my time and my NHS funding (which is for emergency treatment only) on someone who doesn't want to take any responsibility for themselves.

A huge number of patients are like this, my own mother included. She says "oh don't tell Dr T" (her dentist) when I ask why there are so many packets of extra strong mints in the car alongside 20 B&H. As if she's cheating him and not herself!! Why should the tax payer pick up the bill for this when (as Bonzo said) it could simply keep her out of pain and educate her. If she doesn't want to listen then she should pay for it herself.

So crusts what option should dentists take when the NHS won't pay them to see patients?

Im off to budapest next year to get my work done.

Well its a two way street then isnt it. If i were practitioner morally I would take on a certain amount of NHS patients and Im sure they would be paid the going rate.

So you are saying that dentists wont be paid this then?

OP!... Alas a lot of folk here are not in agreement with you but I'm not sure why... "In my day" you went to an ordinary dentist and it was on the NHS... Since some years ago , loads of dentists opted out and charge privately or through some kind of plan. NHS dentists do not earn much but the private ones charge "OMG!!!" I rather thought that dentistry was part of the NHS ... Many older folk have been believing that for decades!!!
My own practice went private a few years ago and had a "plan" that costs me about £13.50 pm but my kids were retained as NHS... The plan , for me , included two check ups a year, two scale and polishes , oral cancer screening, gum check and x-Rays ... Was informed on Monday that I no longer need to see the dentist twice a year , only once, and that I had to see the hygienist twice a year instead as they felt that preventative care was more suited... For this I got a less than one pound reduction!!! So now I only see a dentist once a year for almost the same price and I'm left with seeing the heavy handed hygienist who is patronising and has given me an infection!!! ( am not the first!!!)
Thought national insurance and taxes paid for all of this but clearly not...
It was very interesting to see all the new build at my dental practice and new signage , decor and and interactive fripperies!!!
Oh and my student daughter had to pay for her check-up on the NHS!!!!
Hmmmm

Take responsibility for themselves? who on earth are you to judge this?

gunpowder you have no idea how dental training and employment work.

As an example, to work in the NHS you have to do foundation training after your degree. In the UK there are not enough foundation places for every graduate so you're ruling some of them out of providing NHS care before they've even started work.

Dentists from elsewhere in Europe don't have to do a foundation year so they can tip up from Poland or Bulgaria and crack on without doing this training. wtf is that all about?

Your ideas about maximum pay are frankly insulting; these dentists are running businesses. If the NHS doesn't want to commission £200,000 worth of care from them then they won't, it is not a salary, it is the total value of the contract they have been awarded by the commissioners. You have conflated contract value with salary (as has been explained to you several times). What other businesses do you propose putting a salary cap on?

All I can say is thank god the brilliant doctors that work in our A&E departments etc. dont think the way you do.

I'm chasing my tail here.

Crusts, please answer this: If i spend time (which I don't get paid for) educating a patient about how to look after their teeth and they immediately and blatantly ignore it, do you think they are taking responsibility for their own health?

Do you understand that if the NHS don't give you a contract, you can't treat patients under the NHS because you don't have a contract with the NHS. You can't just "take on" NHS patients, you reach an agreement with the commissioners to provide X amounts of dental activity in a 12 month period for which you will get paid Y. If there is no agreement, there is no money.

So explain what dentists should do?

I'm genuinely interested in your answers to these two questions.

I don't think I can explain it in any other way.

Dentist = private business. Private business which is paid for by the dentist who owns it and wants to make a profit.

A&E = not private business, the Drs in there have no interest in their profit margin.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

As someone else has suggested, if they are trained by the NHS they should be required to work for the NHS for a decent number of years afterwards, on a sensible salary. I would say the same of doctors, who are also overpaid.
I know a hospital consultant who is paid in the region of £200K. He complains about how badly he is paid and how unfair his final salary pension scheme is and how hard it is for him to put his 4 children through private school.
Amazing how people genuinely come to believe that they are worth 10 times what the average hardworking person is. And this is in he public sector.

Im with gunpowder here. Why not reply to her.

Did you work for the NHS gunpowder ? Or the state for a few years to pay back your education costs?

Crusts, why don't you answer my questions? They are quite clear.

Would you say.... go away due to being a bit overweight? would you say I cant treat you because you didnt eat a balanced diet, would you say I know how much pain an abscess causes but guess what, go away as you caused it yourself?

OK, I'm going to step out now. You clearly are being deliberately obtuse in not answering the questions or even actually reading the posts in the thread.

Because I dont need to answer your questions.

I have no problem with dentists and doctors earning a relatively high salary (or what they draw out as profit). I've already suggested approx. 3 times the average salary. That is a great deal more than many well qualified professionals earn. Why do you think that is so outrageous? Others working in the public sector are being paid less and less every year (in real terms), from a low starting point.
I remember the mum of a relatively young dentist boasting to me that he had gone into private work and now only bothered to work 3 days a week, as he was so well paid that he didn't know what to do with all the money. So he had decided to spend the other 2 week days playing golf.