To wonder if it's possible to have an open and Frank discussion in UK about immigration

[DoeEyedNear]

And not have it shut down by people saying it's racist to discuss immigration. Not just here but in the press any mention of immigration and any debate is shut down with "can't say that it's racist"

I don't think I said immigrants were the problem, did I? I said it makes no sense to allow unskilled immigration (although were powerless to stop EU immigration) when we have a surplus of labour in the country already.

when we have a surplus of labour in the country already
But we don't

We have lots of people with no skills to do the jobs that are needed.
That is not the same thing at all.

Also many of the unskilled unemployed are in areas where there is no work - eg the Welsh Valleys
And the unskilled jobs (primarily agricultural) are hard work compared with staying on benefits.

Long before the EU "free movement of people" farmers were bringing in seasonal workers from Eastern Europe.

THe real issue is that the UK housing market is so distorted that people cannot move to where the work is.

I found it shocking recently when that man who organised some of the kindertransports died and was quite rightly praised as a hero yet almost on the opposite pages of the newspapers there was no discussion of the fact that what is going on in Syria now is similar and once again we are turning away and refusing to let people in.

But I'm still confused. To get to Calais people have to pass through several safe, rich and lovely countries. So why is the UK seen as so wonderful ? Because it can't be language/cultural if people are from Syria or Eritrea. So why here ? France is a very rich country. As are the other European countries they pass through on their horrible journeys, yet we are seen as worth dying for. I think we need to find out why - because our streets are definitely not paved with gold any more.

So why is the UK seen as so wonderful ? Because it can't be language/cultural if people are from Syria or Eritrea. So why here ?

I've seen quite a few things written on this - from the British Red Cross and others, saying that it's not that our benefits system is perceived to be better, but rather than it's (a) seen as easier to get work here and (b) because those migrating are more likely to have some English than some French or some Italian.

I read something suggesting that the nature of the French and English underground economies are very different - the French cash economy definitely exists but tends to be only accessible if you're white and Francophone, while Britain's is much more open.

The UK has free movement of people within its borders. Trying to force people to live where there is no work is stupid.

Yes, thank you TalkinPeace, I'm not completely thick. You may not be aware that Australia has much the same.

However, there is a principle whereby certain categories Of immigrant are required to work/run their businesses in areas where there is an economic need. So if there is a shortage of nurses and doctors in an area, or a region is seen as needing economic regeneration, there are restrictions in place on the visas of those who might contribute in those areas for the first few years. One of those visa categories is those who want to start a business - thereby bringing investment and local jobs to an area where they are needed.

In response to a poster who said she thought immigration might do some good where she is, a comparison with systems abroad didn't seem entirely unreasonable and deserving of such scorn.

However, I'm just a thick immigrant, what the hell would I know?

The French reply to that is that our system is so lax that it's easier to work and live here while being illegal/part of the underground economy. Whether that view is true, I dunno, but it's very commonly believed by the continentals. We don't have compulsory ID cards, etc.

Jassy
Australia is larger than Europe and has a population smaller than Greater London.
Its also rather more than 22 miles from other economic powerhouses.

Australia and the UK are not a good comparison.

You cannot make people stay in Bolton if they want to move to London.

For a better comparator, look at Califorina / Texas and Mexico
A long, leaky border with a rich country protesting lots while relying utterly on "illegals" for its cheap fruit and veg

Yawn. If you look at the areas of Australia where people actually live, or even where they can live, you might have a more valid point. Hyperbole like that just makes you look a bit silly.

In an age where the give is both trying to direct investment into certain areas and control immigration without stifling the economy, regionally-specific migration isn't the silliest idea in the world.

For a better comparator, look at Califorina / Texas and Mexico. A long, leaky border with a rich country protesting lots while relying utterly on "illegals" for its cheap fruit and veg

And again, conflating fundamentally different types of immigration is really unhelpful to the whole debate.

Tell me though, why am investment visa category couldn't be regionally specific? Or a visa for a skills shortage where the shortage is regionally specific? Tell me why it simply can't be done?

mumsneed you're talking as it none of the migrants go anywhere but Calais which just isn't true. There will be lots stopping off in all the countries they pass through. Or going into other European countries through their large land borders. The Calais problem comes about precisely because we have a less porous border. The migrants at Calais may well speak English for many reasons or know people who got here. They may see the UK as safe and stable and free of corruption. Maybe it is easier to avoid the authorities here. But we aren't the only rich country that gets migrants.

Jassy

The UK has never had, and never will have "investment visas" : there are enough home grown entrepeneurs not to need them.

How easy is it to hitch from Perth to Sydney versus Bolton to London
THe UK is tiny. Distance rules are not enforcable so the UK has never wasted money trying.

And find me the politician who will lay his career on the line to get visa for asparagus pickers.

Actually the uk offers investor visas:

www.gov.uk/tier-1-investor/overview

I'm sure you have statistics to back up all your grandiose absolute statements (relative levels of home-grown entrepreneurship, a good understanding of regionally-concentrated skills shortages, etc). Care to share any?

And find me the politician who will lay his career on the line to get visa for asparagus pickers.

The environment department's politicians over shearers a few years back? Didn't make a ripple. Is there a shortage of asparagus-pickets that isn't being filled by EU immigration currently?

£2m and no locations : not like the Aussie business visas ....

after all Dominica is dishing out visas for cash,
nothing to do with true immigration

To the PP who said that I ASSUME there is no migration near me - honestly, the place is tiny. I know everyone and am a teacher so see all the kids, their families etc. There are a few EU (French and German, married locals) two mixed race and a scattering of others (NZ, one Thai, a couple from Aus). There are a few more seasonal workers (mostly Spanish and Hungarian - not sure why) but that is it. There are plenty of opportunities in lower paid jobs and loads of people have their own small business. Why not settle some people here?

I didn't know about the Australian system where you could be restricted where you settle to help regenerate / fill jobs. That would work well for us. I would love a wider range of backgrounds here!

Roseforme
You said up thread there were no immigrants, but now magically there are French, German, Thai, Kiwi and Aus

• that sounds like a decent percentage of immigrants top me

make your mind up

Thanks Nolim. Australia's investment threshold is lower but only if you're investing somewhere they feel needs the investment/jobs etc. A decade or so ago people had to submit business models, including projected employment, as part of their application.

Why when we're talking about skills shortages do we end up talking about agricultural workers, I wonder? Why not nuclear scientists, of whom we have not nearly enough, and those we do have have an unaccountable preference for working in Kent or Essex rather than the area of greatest need, West Cumbria?

I do agree that this is a Europe wide problem, and many people do chose to stay elsewhere. It's just the desperation required to get into the UK specifically must be driven by something very powerful. I think our lack of ID cards is a big part (it is easy to work here illegally), but also we are seen as more welcoming of all cultures. But this is becoming less true I'm afraid. 2 weeks ago I worked in a school where no child has a British parent. Not one. This is not healthy or helpful in integrating into the society you have fought so hard to become a part of. It's such a complex issue and it would be wonderful if we could accommodate everyone who wants to come. But we can't. And I have no idea how we reconcile ourselves to this.

The UK has never had, and never will have "investment visas"

TalkinPeace, to quote your charming response to Roseformeplease, 'make your mind up'.

Although, I can see that you can't force someone to stay when they can get on a train / bus and be in London 13 hours later. But, there could be incentives.

Jassy
I have friends who moved to Aus on the investment visa system : there is no direct equivalent in terms in the UK.

The point is that the immigrants coming in are either too rich to care
or have lost everything and don't have papers

Aus is not comparable with the UK

and if the UK was less stupid about kicking out graduate students (thanks Theresa May) we'd have less of a shortage of qualified specialist scientists

Roseforme
The point is that you cannot, morally, settle people where there is no work.
All of the places with work are within 5 hours of the South East

ID cards have not stopped the buggering up of the French employment system

TalkinPeace. Not sure how I have annoyed you with my desire to seek diversity in my area, and more immigration. The people I mentioned are individual people. Out of a population, across 3 villages, of about 3000 there are 2 non whites and a mere handful from the EU (or commonwealth) one of the non-whites is Thai, married to a Brit, the other is from the Midlands. My school is 100% white, as are all the local primaries. I would love more people to move here - there is lots of space!

There are no refugees, asylum seekers or displaced persons. I wish there were.

So, maybe a dozen permanent residents born outside the UK out of 3000 odd. Nothing like London or the South East, the Midlands etc.

Another one who thinks that MrsTerryPratchett says it all.

If it were for the huge and growing divide between the rich and the poor, people would be able to stay in their own countries and not see their children go hungry. Most people are interested in travel, apart from holidays and would prefer to stay close to home, near their extended families. Some people would like to try somewhere else to live or marry someone of a different nationality but never enough to be a problem for the host country.

Unfortunately the world economic situation means that people are having to evacuate their own countries and find somewhere else to be able to survive. I speak this as someone who lives in Mexico, which is a country with an unbelievable wealth of natural resources, but it is all being turned over to international companies who give nothing back to the locals, apart from the bribes that go into the pockets of policy-makers.

And there is so much (admittedly seasonal) work that DS and his pals are all working in pubs, cafes etc. He earns £7.50 an hour waiting tables and friend of his was offered a pay rise to £9 to stop her leaving a job. They are both 15.