To wonder if it's possible to have an open and Frank discussion in UK about immigration

[DoeEyedNear]

And not have it shut down by people saying it's racist to discuss immigration. Not just here but in the press any mention of immigration and any debate is shut down with "can't say that it's racist"

OP in answer to your first question, no, I don't think it is. Not on MN anyway. Thankfully out in the wider world, yes.

Thankfully out in the wider world, yes.
Ha Ha ROTFLMAOPMPL

Please, suggest a good place to have the discussion where it will not turn into a fight.

Actually, I think this has been a pretty frank discussion, but without the fight, has it not? apart from a couple of the hard-of-thinking

There are a gratifying number of sensible, balanced responses in this thread so it obviously is possible to have a reasonable discussion, although of course as someone said earlier it helps to define what you are talking about - EU or non-EU, legal or illegal.

It also helps to have some sort of factual starting point. Given that anyone reading the popular press might be under the impression that every single migrant reaching the EU has only one ambition - to get to the UK - it's worth pointing out that the UK receives far fewer asylum applicants than most other major EU countries. Germany receives at least six times as many as the UK (over 200k in 2014, and heading for half a million this year - versus just over 30k in the UK last year) and France and Italy at least twice as many. Even Sweden and Hungary have more asylum applicants. Most asylum seekers head for countries where there are existing communities speaking their language. The availability of jobs helps, although plainly if you consider the destinations mentioned above, this isn't a primary consideration (it would be harder for an immigrant to find work in France or Hungary than in the UK).

Another issue that makes it hard to have a balanced discussion is the idea that you have to be pro or anti when in fact many people including myself hold a position somewhere in between. Immigration has many benefits but plainly uncontrolled migration is not a good thing, either for the receiving country or the migrants themselves (the camps around Calais being a good example of this).

Is the UK full? Bits of the south East sure, but if the govt could only adopt a more sensible regional development policy that spread out the benefits of economic growth a bit more evenly, this would be much less true. There are parts of the UK where there is very little pressure on housing (where my nephew lives, ex council houses have been offered for sale for a pound!) but of course the flip side of this is that there are not many jobs either.

Athenavoilet You object to wealthy & white immigrants - does this mean that you are all in favour of only black/brown penniless ones?

Seensheen
Speaking as one of the white, comparatively wealthy immigrants, I have to agree with athena about the money laundering tax evaders who park teir cash in London property while paying bugger all taxes and running their businesses through Mayfair offices into offshore tax havens.

The cost of owning a £25 million property in Kensington is around £2000 a year in council tax.

The cost of owning that same property in New York is around £500,000 a year in land taxes.
London is missing a trick by not adding council tax bands J - Z
and not clobbering people who keep property empty for years and year.

Remember that there are 500,000 empty homes in Britain and 1,000,000 homes that are only used for a few weeks a year.

The UK is not full, it just uses its housing stock really badly : a shake up of property taxes would make hard working families feel better off and mostly penalise rich non taxpayers.

Is it possible? Probably not.

Icelandic
Its possible and doable. There just has to be political will.

I've communicated with the Treasury, the Bank of England and DCLG on the issue.
None of them were able to dismantle the discussion paper I sent them.
They just said it was each other's responsibility.

But as the people it would hit are the rich cronies of the rich politicians and the rich house-builders who provide free staff to DCLG, it never will.

But that is surely a reason to change the tax system then as this would benefit the country. Importing masses of penniless immigrants of any colour is a drain and not a benefit.

Importing masses of penniless immigrants of any colour is a drain and not a benefit.
What makes you think they are penniless?
And if they get out to work as soon as they arrive, they will not be penniless for long.

... and they're not a drain either, as you can see if you read some of the links already posted on this thread.

Has it BIWI? In that case I might bother reading the thread then. I look forward to a refreshing change.

I thought it would be one of those tedious MN threads that always go exactly the same way with such depressing regularity that I can barely muster the energy to read them any more. This is one of those topics where a good proportion of posters always trot out cliches and sling insults towards anyone who dares to have a different POV, while totally dismissing any of their thoughts on the matter.

Sorry Talkingpeacce, I meant on MN. On the basis, I've not seen one yet that didn't descend into bunfight-ness.

If they get out to work as soon as they arrive then surely there will just be more people after the same few jobs - or do we have thousands of spare jobs available at the moment?

As I said before the not a drain argument is only supported by offsetting thousands of low paid benefit topped up cases with one or two millionaire/billionaire exceptions.

I struggle to accept that most asylum seeking immigrants could afford to live where the jobs are without needing housing benefit.

I get all the arguments about wanting a better life. But why are people dying to leave France ? They've made it that far so why is France not a nice place to settle ? Why is the UK seen as so amazing that you risk death ? I genuinely don't understand.

I struggle to accept that most asylum seeking immigrants could afford to live where the jobs are without needing housing benefit.

They are seeking asylum because where they come from is shit
not because they are unskilled

among the thousands of people in limbo in the UK are Doctors, nurses, teachers, engineers, architects, programmers and many other skilled groups

the ones with the gumption to get here are exactly the type that UK companies are crying out for.
There are thousands of unfilled jobs.

The UK born population is declining - births have been below replacement in the whole of Europe for decades.
Without a steady supply of immigrants to work and pay taxes, there will be no money to pay the pensions of older Britons.

Well why are all those doctors, teachers and architects etc camping out in Calais not seeking asylum in France then?

mumsneed
Because the French economy is in a funk.
French unemployment is double that of the UK
its employment laws are stupidly rigid so that companies avoid hiring.

Its one of the perversities of economics that countries with weaker employment laws have better employment prospects.

Also, many of the migrants come from anglophone parts of the world so will find it easier to get work in the UK once they are here.

But the asylum rules don't condone travelling across the world and automatically being granted your first choice of country. If you are fleeing real persecution than any safe country should suffice. However if your persecution is an invention designed to further your economic migration - then perhaps only the UK will do?

I moved here for economic reasons.
I cannot condemn it in others.

What is the point of leaving home if you do not end up somewhere you can make a living?

I'm in favour of immigration where immigrants are highly skilled in an area where we have a skills shortage. I'm not in favour of low skilled / unsullied immigrants when we have. Nearly 2 million unemployed UK citizens. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Johncusack
But the UK people do not have the skills / willingness to work.

My Kosovan car wash man cannot get English people to work for him, even cash in hand - so he employs Poles and Hungarians and Lithuanians.

The UK has imported people to do its scummy jobs for decades - immigrants pick veg because the English won't.

I know that TalkinPeace, and we've put up with that attitude (from uk citizens who don't want to do these jobs) for far too long.

So the immigrants are not the problem, the English are

We immigrants pay much more tax per capita than you locals

TalkinPeace the point with the Aussie visa and sending them remote is that there is work but everyone wants to live in Melbourne or Sydney or Brissie at a push and not regional. They get the visa as there is a need.

It's actually a good idea, when there is a lot about Aussie immigration at the moment that's not.