To wonder if it's possible to have an open and Frank discussion in UK about immigration

[DoeEyedNear]

And not have it shut down by people saying it's racist to discuss immigration. Not just here but in the press any mention of immigration and any debate is shut down with "can't say that it's racist"

[JassyRadlett]

Do you know Rose's area better than she does? How interesting.

The lack of 'direct equivalents' doesn't mean there shouldn't be? If we're talking about immigration that is helpful, then considering different approaches is intellectually sound. A regional investment visa would make quite q bit more sense than letting the rich settle in London and the South East where god help us we arent actually desperate for investment and jobs, while simultaneously providing subsidies and sweeteners for businesses to open in or relocate to the north.

Desperate to come to Britain and have money to spare? Open a significant business in Morpeth and commit to headquarter it there for the first five years, minimum.

Incidentally, there are aspects of the investment visa system in Australia that are directly analogous to the UK one, and set the bar a fair bit higher.

We don't train nearly enough nuclear specialists for our needs, by the way, regardless of the actions of various governments. If you think we suddenly hit a nuclear skills shortage 4 years ago, you are deluded. And those we do train - as well as those we import - show a distinct lack of enthusiasm for Sellafield unless they are paid a fortune, and we still don't have enough.

[Atenco]

duh *If it were NOT for the huge and growing divide..."

[Roseformeplease]

"You cannot morally settle people where there is no work". Agreed. But, equally, not all work is in London. People live and work all over the place. Why not encourage a more even distribution?

[AgentCooper]

I've worked with refugees and my default feeling is always that we should give people the benefit of the doubt and help make their lives easier by coming here if we can. I know that this is overly idealistic. I know that this is a pretty small island. But it's hard to feel different when you've worked with and spoken to the people in question. I could probably be far more objective, I know.

One thing I do feel strongly about, however, is how much harder it's getting for non EU students to come here. I work in an English language school and the recent election really saw a shifting of the goalposts. Now, if you want to do a preparatory English course, you need to take your English test in one of only around 100 centres worldwide. That's down from thousands, literally. If you live in Northern Iraq, that's going to be fucking hard. If you want to study for more than 6 months, you can't get a full study visa in your country anymore. You get a temporary visa then your full one, if you're lucky, at a post office when you reach the UK. If your government doesn't recognise that temporary visa when you're about to leave, then you're not getting on that plane, no matter how much you paid for it.

Then there's the removal of the 2 year work period once your studies are finished. For some, no big deal - plenty of our Saudi students want to get a good degree then go home to their families. Not so with Iraqis, Libyans and especially Kurdish Iraqis. The thought of being a Kurd and having to go back to your home town which is under Isis control, when you don't know if your parents are dead or alive, but fearing the worst because Isis despise Kurds, just so you can renew your visa - that is utter shit. Lots of our students live with this every day. They'll tell me about receiving racist abuse here but preferring it to being at home. And they don't want to tell the police because they know they're not wanted here and they feel that any trouble will result in their visas being withdrawn. Or that, if their government finds out they've had any dealings with the police, their sponsorship will be withdrawn and they'll be sent home. Trying to get a visa to get out of Iraq is horrible. These students miss their families, they worry about what's happening to them and this, added to the stress of study, makes them ill. I see it again and again.

I don't know what this government think they are doing - these students know they have no recourse to public funds, they can't work more than 20 hours a week, and they respect this. But they feel they're being hounded out and nowhere is safe for them. If more of them stayed, we'd be holding on to some brilliant skilled professionals in the sciences, medicine, IT. But it's becoming impossible.

[TalkinPeace]

Hear Hear to Agentcooper

I met a Kurdish Syrian student who, as part of his PHD had patented a fab add on for 3d printing.
His Uni department were moving heaven and earth to get the earnings on the patent high enough to get him a visa
or he - and his knowledge - would be sent back to almost certain death where he came from, at the hands of ISIS

utterly stupid waste of resources by the UK : FFS he'd end up making jobs for English people.

[AgentCooper]

I agree Talkin - the work lots of our students are doing probably would create jobs. I'm in Scotland and the immigration situation isn't quite as problematic up here as it is down south. One thing I think we could do with is devolving immigration because I think it's ludicrous that the same rules apply to London and Glasgow/Edinburgh. The situations are not the same.

It's bloody stupid. We have to tell professors we can't take their much wanted PhD students because of UKVI regulations when Scotland is bloody brain drain central. We've got a handful of amazingly intelligent female Libyan cardiology PhDs on our books right now. The minute they submit their theses, it's back to Libya for them. And fucking Jeremy Hunt is whinging about there not being consultants on in hospitals at the weekends. We really are dealing with a shower of pricks who are so scared of the UKIP vote, they'll do anything to appease it.

[Roseformeplease]

It would be great to have more even spread.

Still not sure what I said to get TalkinPeace (ironically, a rather combative poster) so riled up.

[TalkinPeace]

there is no g in my username and the history of it (ten years ago) has nothing to do with being peaceful
its all about avoiding auction wreckers on ebay

I've always been an opinionated immigrant mare

[Primafacie]

I'm an immigrant. I came from Canada on a highly skilled visa and earn a comfortable 6-figure sum. DP was born here, second generation immigrant from India. Together we contribute enormous taxes to the British economy whilst getting minimal services. I have British citizenship, as do our children. Please ask away - more than happy to debunk some myths about non-EU immigration.

I don't feel hard done by (never had benefits of any kind, but never expected any) but also dont feel apologetic - why should I? I earned my place in this country. My grandfather fought in WW1 for this country. Britain has a massive imperial history - what did you expect, to send millions to fight for you then shut the door on others in need? Get real. The world has changed, what entitles you to reap the benefits of having been born on this island? There is only one Earth. IMHO most people who complain about immigration are people who don't know nearly enough about the world. Have you seen what it means to live in Indian slums, Brazilian favelas, Middle eastern war zones? Wouldn't you give everything to spare your children that? I have, and I would.

[Mistigri]

Why do so many of you think that migrants don't stop in France?

They do. About twice as many end up claiming asylum in France as end up in the UK! And many, many more go to Germany. (Source: UNHCR stats for 2914)

Sad after a good start to see so much disinformation. Migrants are NOT all headed to Britain. The UK comes behind Germany, Italy, France, Sweden and Hungary on the list of EU destinations for migrants.

[mumsneedwine]

As I said, very clearly, I know lots of migrants go to other countries. What is different for the UK is why some deem it so important to get here that there risk their lives to cross the Channel. Why not just stay in France or any of the other countries that they pass through ? That's what I think needs investigating. Because Calais is currently a mess. And I appreciate that many, many migrants contribute hugely to the country and I would love to take everyone in that wants to come. But working in poorer areas that have been changed so much by immigration I can see the tensions that are forming. Ask yourself honestly, would you want your child to be the only one, in a school of 180, that has English as a home language ? Because the segregation this is causing worries me. And the indigenous population are unhappy as they can't get their kids into the local school anymore. Integration is not happening as it should and we need to know why before it all boils over.

[Mistigri]

But why should we want them all to stay in France or Germany? Those countries already take more non-EU migrants than the UK. The ones who want to get to the UK are just more visible because the UK is not part of the Schengen area and has a maritime border that is harder to cross. And it would be hard to blame the French if they decided that the border should be in Dover not Calais ...

[YeOldeTrout]

There are other places in Europe with huge problems with illegal migrants. Uk is relatively lucky compared to Hungary or Greece.

[Athenaviolet]

whilst getting minimal services

I see wealthy migrants frequently stating this but I think they (primafacie correct me if I'm wrong in your case, I only mean to generalise) underestimate their cost to wider society.

NHS
State education, inc tertiary education where applicable
Policing
Roads
Subsidised public transport
The safety net of a good legal system
Arts funding
Parks
Leisure facilities
Libraries
Free museums
Community development/regeneration


All whilst paying lower taxes compared to wealthy people in other developed countries

[Roseformeplease]

Apology accepted TalkinPeace

[Nolim]

Athenaviolet i think the fair comparison in not about wealthy ppl in other countries but regular ppl were you live. The services that you mention are paid by everyones taxes. So if i live in the uk and i am a high earner i pay more than my fair share. Probably more if i have private insurance and education. Shouldnt i use the nhs if i pay national insurance contributions? Should i not drive in the same roads?

[eaiand2]

I'm in JessieRadlett's boat an an immigrant- I'm content with my life in the UK, I am t/here because my stand and DD are british, but I do get homesick and can't help comparing certain things to how I would expect them to be back in my home country.

And having been living in France for the last 7 months and travelled by car back and forth to the UK once a month through Calais I can say I've never seen any of the migrants they show or discuss on UK news outlets. I'm sure it's because they congregate near the areas where the lorries are and not the passenger vehicles, and I get that they're obviously there somewhere, but they make it sound like there's masses and masses of them and I can't believe it's as bad as it's made out to be.

(Sorry, I haven't finished reading through the whole thread yet!)

[ethelb]

Nolim, the point is that they aren't 'minimal' services. No one is doubting your contribution to them.

[JohnCusacksWife]

The real issue is that the UK housing market is so distorted that people cannot move to where the work is

So, UK citizens can't afford to go to where the work is but other people can travel halfway round the world to do it?? We do not need any more unskilled labour in this country, we've (sadly) got enough unskilled people of our own.

[mumsneedwine]

But it's not just about money. It's about culture, language and living by the rules of the country you chose to settle in. And in some cases this is not happening. I know this is an unpopular thing to say, and I hate that I am seeing it, but I can't ignore it. One school I work in has 92% of students from one country, and some of these parents are now demanding that the school rules are changed to accommodate their culture. These rules are sexist and against everything the UK believes in (equality of sexes, no discrimination by religion). But I have been called racist as I dare to question the leaders, who said I am undermining their rights. I try and explain that they chose to settle in a country that does not believe that girls should be treated differently, and I am called all sorts of names. I don't understand why you would move to a country where you don't agree with the underlying values. I will fight for those girls with my every breath, as I live in a country where we are free, but I do sometimes lately feel like I'm entering the twilight zone.

[eaiand2]

Athenaviolet: you'd do away with marriage visas altogether?? So you would recommend forcing all Brits who marry foreigners to leave the country, then? I'm pretty damn offended by that.

I'm Canadian, my husband is British. I met him when I was in London paying a f-ton of money to do a postgraduate degree, I work, I pay tax and national insurance, aside from the fact that I am in the country on a biometric residence permit as a spouse with leave to remain we are no different to any british married couple. Oh, except that although I pay tax and NI I have 'no recourse to public funds.' So I can't get benefits even IF I didn't work. I'm pretty offended that you believe I have no right to be in the UK.

[Athenaviolet]

Nolim but high earners (whether migrants or never left the UK) dont pay their fair share under the UK tax regime, we are a 'low tax for the rich' state which is why London especially is being bought up by the world's super rich.

The poorer you are in the UK the higher a proportion of your income you pay in tax. Income tax is just one chunk of UK tax revenue. We have lots of other regressive taxes eg VAT which penalise the poor more than the wealthy.

Eaiand2- I'm not saying we should necessarily get rid of them altogether but I'd like to see a debate on it. Do people have a right to settle in their partner's country? Does this benefit the UK? Why is marriage immigration more socially acceptable than economic migration?

I never see these questions being debated. Ever.

[JassyRadlett]

I think it's an interesting question, and I speak as one who has been in both economic and spousal immigration categories.

To me it comes down to what the country wants for its own citizens. Is it simply economic benefit? Or is it happiness, fulfilment, the ability to reap the benefits of being in a stable long-term partnership or marriage?

It's a legitimate question. I don't think the current system, where only those on certain incomes have access to those things, is in any way fair.

[DadfromUncle]

I've seen a few contributors suggesting that our lack of ID cards facilitates illegal working. Just to be clear - it doesn't. There is a lack of enforcement of the rules we have and a blind eye turned to the black economy. I mentioned it earlier and a few other posters have referred to it too. That is not to say we don't have legitimate tax-paying incomers - we do, we have lots, but we also have plenty of indigenous and alien workers who aren't in any way official, and ID cards wouldn't change that.

[GiddyOnZackHunt]

Dad - that's your view. Yes there would be forgery etc but the mere fact that the police can't demand papers from anyone at any time does provide some ability to dissemble. People who currently employ illegal immigrants would ignore a lack of papers, yes that's true. They'd still sleep 8 ,to a room. But if they're stopped or raided then they could be charged and held far more easily than is the situation currently. If you're coming from a strict regime then knowing you can stonewall and feign ignorance, refuse to speak your language etc, then it's a plus.