To wonder if it's possible to have an open and Frank discussion in UK about immigration

[DoeEyedNear]

And not have it shut down by people saying it's racist to discuss immigration. Not just here but in the press any mention of immigration and any debate is shut down with "can't say that it's racist"

Someone mentioned the benefits of immigration. Could someone please list these?

So many of us don't have the full facts, me included and are prone to jump to conclusions (again me included at times). I have no real problem with immigration but I sometimes can't help feeling this country simply cannot afford the massive extra strain it puts on schools, the NHS etc. I could be wrong of course.

The problem is that we are a small country and we are already over stretched public service wise. I feel about immigration in a similar way to how I feel about have huge families. There just aren't enough resources.
I appreciate how desperate some people are and can't imagine how awful it must be but I just don't know what the answer is. The nhs and the education system are struggling in particular to cope with the amount of people already here.

benefits ..well paying £20bn in tax?

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c49043a8-6447-11e4-b219-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3gvoQS0eb

Benefits include filling gaps in the skilled workforce

staffing the NHS www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/26/nhs-foreign-nationals-immigration-health-service

from the FT
Researchers calculated that between 1995 and 2011, migrants from outside the EU were a net cost of £118bn compared with the net contribution of £4bn by EU migrants over the same period.

This is partly because of the higher numbers of children and lower employment rate of non-EU migrants before points-based restrictions were imposed from 2008.

Increased multiculturalism is a massive benefit

More paid in tax than claimed in benefits

Filling of low skilled jobs that otherwise would not be filled

Filling of highly skilled jobs that otherwise would not be filled

Foreign students keep our universities afloat and contribute billions to the economy and to higher education

100s of Africans die each year getting in to Spain and those that make it usually stay within the country

Spain has had 4 million immigrants come and stay in the past 20 years despite not being given any benefits. A similar number to the UK

Also, there are about the same numbers of Britons abroad as there are foreigners in the UK

So there is nothing special about the UK in terms of numbers - and the immigration emigration balance seems pretty fair

I agree that a debate on why a country may or may not want immigration never takes place. The prime reason is to keep wages low while increasing GDP through population growth. It is seen a benefit to the macroeconomy but certainly not to the average citizen, That problem also isn't specific to the UK though

As a rule, new immigrants give back as much as they take. That's how an economy works. The Polish lady who started coaching at the swim club, the Indian man who became a PCSO, the Somali guy who started a small business & employs 6 people. It's not like immigrants stand to the side sucking resources out & putting nothing back in.

However, defeats me to figure out how people dangerously sneaking onto lorries at Calais so they can become part of underground economy could possibly be a good thing for UK. Even if they do some very cheap labour that keeps costs of some things down, I'm not seeing net benefits, I'm freaked out about who they might be (wannabe terrorists? Who knows?!). So if we're talking Calais specifically, the situation is a nightmare.

I guess if my boss spent a lot more time recruiting then 8/11 people working for him wouldn't be immigrants. It's a huge benefit to him & our institution that he hasn't had to repeatedly advertise.

I'm not opposed to immigration, my grandparent was a migrant and as a pp's dh did, worked on a rubbish dump. He was very patriotic about our queen and happy here. However what narks me are those that are pleased to enjoy the benefits (Not as in housing benefit, but the pros) of living here but moan about how much better people did things in their home country. Well what does appeal to someone enough for them sticks and leave if culturally they are unhappy ?? I'm genuinely interested.

We are always given net benefits of thousands/millions of people though. The net cost of quite a few big issue sellers would be more than offset by the benefit of one Russian millionaire like Abramovich. Yet we are not allowed to opt for just the ones who may benefit our country - it is always talked about as all or nothing.

However what narks me are those that are pleased to enjoy the benefits (Not as in housing benefit, but the pros) of living here but moan about how much better people did things in their home country. Well what does appeal to someone enough for them sticks and leave if culturally they are unhappy ?? I'm genuinely interested.

Can I try to answer this? I think it's a reasonable question, but I've also encountered what I think are unreasonable attitudes - ie, because I'm an immigrant I should unquestioningly agree that everything in the UK is better than in my home country, I must never critique or complain about public policy or any aspect of life in the UK.

Unfortunately, I didn't have my critical faculties removed when I got my settlement visa.

I think I know what you mean - the people who say everything in the UK is rubbish and is better in their home country. I don't think that, but I do think some things in my home country are better, just as I think some things in third countries are better than here. Conversely, I think a lot of things in the UK are better than in my home country - and I have no qualms about telling my family and friends at home about those things.

It's pretty finely balanced. I'm reasonably content living here, but I get horribly homesick sometimes? Why do I stay? British husband and child (soon to be children). I have a good job here that helps to support them (and will increasingly support my husband's family as time goes on, in a way my family do not need). I've seen too many marriages founder when they go back to the immigrant partner's home country - I had my own life here before I met DH, he wouldn't have that if we moved to the other side of the world.

And mostly, that's a fine state of affairs, and there are a lot of great things about living here.

Nothing will ever convince me that state funding for faith schools is one of them, though.

Yet we are not allowed to opt for just the ones who may benefit our country - it is always talked about as all or nothing.

Is it? It's increasingly tough for non-EU, non-asylum seeker migrants to enter the country without skills or cash behind them.

Why do 70 year olds surf the www yet miss the good old days? People always moan and miss the past

Mowt more British than moaning

I'm an immigrant from outside the EU and I have more than the average number of children. They take up places in British schools and use the NHS. In fact, they use a lot of resources and I'm not sure that the tax I pay covers the cost of these resources, especially when you factor in my own use of the NHS and other British resources. Their father works part time and gets a variety of benefits, so he doesn't contribute much in the way of tax towards the cost of educating them and keeping them healthy. I like to think that my work contributes something towards the British economy, but I'm sure my job could be done by a British national instead of by an immigrant like me.

I find it quite interesting to try to imagine my life interpreted through the rhetoric of some of the guff I see on the covers of newspapers. This rhetoric is often curiously reminiscent of the German press in the 1930s, especially in terms of attitudes to religious minorities and people with disabilities. It's rather worrying.

OP
I am a first generation economic migrant who had to report regularly to the police for my first few years

What would you like to know about why people move to this country?

Increased multiculturalism is a massive benefit

Can someone explain this to me, because it is a MN favourite. At its base, "culture" is the rules of a particular society that enable us to live together peacefully. (not specifically to do with race/colour/religion, tho can be linked to one or more).

Once you encourage multiculturalism you get people with a completely different of rules who naturally think their rules are correct and yours are wrong. That's where you get trouble.

You only have to take the example of queueing. We in the UK are brought up to queue nicely and wait our turn. Other cultures - France for eg - don't do this. So we go to France for the first time and queue for the bus, only to find that when it comes we get shoved out of the way by the free for all.

Add dress codes, food, driving and you can see why we end up up with conflict.

It's one thing travelling to another country and finding that they do things differently. It's quite another when the neighbourhood you have lived in for years suddenly has an influx of people from another culture and suddenly you are frowned on for doing things "wrong".

People need a shared culture. So why is multiculturalism always seen as positive? Or are you just talking about being able to buy Polish food in the supermarket?

I agree with indantherene

There is a potential benefit in the diversity of ideas but there is no evidence that multiculturalism is a benefit to society. In fact usually the opposite because it usually signifies an imbalance of power and or huge communication barriers between two groups eg south Africa whites and blacks, British expats in Spain
Diversity is great and interesting but best if there is a common language and at least a subset of common values. A so called plethora of different cultures living harmoniously with each other for the benefit of society is just a fairytale

the neighbourhood you have lived in for years suddenly has an influx of people from another culture and suddenly you are frowned on for doing things "wrong".

All of the racism I've witnessed in Britain has been perpetrated by white British people against people of colour, many of whom were probably also British nationals. So in my experience, this talk of being frowned on by an influx of immigrants is pretty much bollocks.

Sorcha I'm deliberately not talking about racism. I asked about multiculturalism, which is not the same thing. The new people in my example could just as easily be the same race, from another part of the UK, with a different culture.

People seem to be under the impression that multicultural means multi race, which it doesn't.

Yes, Indantherene, I'm aware that multiculturalism is not the same thing as racism (!).

Your example could indeed by people of the same race and nationality but a different culture.

My experience is an experience of multiethnic communities, in which, as I noted, racism is perpetrated by white Brits against people (usually also British) of minority ethnicities.

So my experience of multiculturalism is one which is ethnically plural. And, in my experience, the influx of frowning people is still bollocks. Instead,what I've seen is oppression of people who move into a community from somewhere else.

And I think it's a bit disingenuous to try to talk in general about multiculturalism in the UK without addressing issues of racism.

I'm not racist but the simple fact is that we cannot cope with any more bloody people! We are a small island and full up, the infrastructure can't cope and neither can the benefits budget, go somewhere else!!

Happ, we aren't full up. We have plenty of land but it isn't necessarily where people want to live. New immigrants tend to contribute more than they take out and the NHS needs immigrants.
Housing benefit and pensions are where the benefit money goes.

I suspect that one reason that this country is attractive to the folk who have got as far as Calais is that there seems to be very little in the way of enforcement here.

It appears to be pretty easy to live and work under the radar here. Sanctions (and attitudes) to the black economy appear to be stricter in France, for example. Our benefit regime isn't significantly better than France, but our rules aren't so strictly enforced.

The French don't wish to detail the migrants at Calais because they'd have to process them, the French see it as our problem because we never joined Schengen and consequently effectively moved our border to Calais. The French think we should join Schengen like most of the rest of Europe and deal with the problem in Dover.