To wonder if it's possible to have an open and Frank discussion in UK about immigration

[DoeEyedNear]

And not have it shut down by people saying it's racist to discuss immigration. Not just here but in the press any mention of immigration and any debate is shut down with "can't say that it's racist"

I'm not racist but the simple fact is that we cannot cope with any more bloody people! We are a small island and full up, the infrastructure can't cope and neither can the benefits budget, go somewhere else

It's worthwhile looking at national debt projections from the OBR under different immigration scenarios. A zero net migration scenario ends in double the national debt as a % of GDP than a high-migration scenario.

Someone has to pay for all the old age benefits, after all...

Dad there's also the simple issue that the immigrants are their problem unless they get out of France. Every country has better immigration than embarkation controls.
If they aren't causing a security issue then it isn't in France's interest to stop them.
We also don't have identity cards like the rest of Europe. I am happy we don't but it does mean police can't demand an ID card and process you for not having it.

There is a potential benefit in the diversity of ideas but there is no evidence that multiculturalism is a benefit to society

I'm not sure that's a supportable statement. There's a significant amount of academic literature on the economic (micro and macro), social and psychological costs and benefits of multiculturalism in various countries.

I found James Berry's work an interesting starting point.

Sure have a discussion about it although it would help if people actually used facts. So many people think that the majority of immigrants into Europe are trying to get to the UK, well actually that is not true.

Giddy (BTW may I add my voice to the chorus of congratulation on your name). Police and other authorities do ask, though - a lot of those super docusoaps on Council enforcers of one sort or another show it happening.

I watched one on Dodgy Landords today - Police found 4 people in an illegal flat in multiple occupancy who were known to them already for being present illegally and absconding previously - contacted the Border Agency who said they had no-one to deal with them so leave them alone. I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of this by the way, but the plain fact is, we don't seem to take it very seriously.

As for "processing" you for not having ID - as you say, the French could do this in theory, as they do have ID cards, but they don't want to.

And like you, I do not want ID cards here - in fact I have actively campaigned against them for a large number of reasons.

When I lived in the UK (mid-late 00's) it did seem that the "immigration" debate was used by many people to be racist, especially about Polish people taking jobs (not that anyone seemed to be breaking their neck to work the countera t Pret.

I would however just like to say that it really shits me that in response to the "immigration" debate, visas for Commonwealth migrants were severely curtailed.

I moved to London from NZ aged 24 on the working holiday visa and after a year switched (at a cost of 700 quid) to the highly skilled migrant visa(as I had a degree, suffcient earnings & relevant work experience. I LOVED living in the UK, got a job after a month in London & was never unemployed, paid rent to a private landlord, never missed a bill, had a great job as an in-house lawyer,contributed to the local hospitality and retail economy. The model immigrant surely! And yet I couldn't move back now because of the visa changes as a sop to the "immigration" debate (you need, I think, a Ph.D now to get the highly skilledmigrant visa). My NZ grandfathers went to war for Britain, it really annoys me.

/rantover

ahem, I am highly skilled,I assure you,although my typo-riddled post would suggest otherwise

My NZ grandfathers went to war for Britain, it really annoys me

This ^^.

I was recently at an exhibition about, among other things, the recruitment of soldiers from Commonwealth countries to fight for the British Empire in the First World War. And there was also a massive drive for other kinds of support: some countries sent horses, some sent grain, etc. It was clear that Britain's ability to draw on men (and other resources) from the colonies was highly significant. I don't think we can have serious conversations about immigration without also talking about colonialism.

Well said MrsTerryPratchett

Colonialism, as far as I'm concerned, is the first thing that springs to mind when talking about immigration.

I am a pragmatist.

Do we have enough affordable housing to accommodate everyone who wants to live here?

Do we have enough jobs to offer to everyone who wants to live here?

Unless the answer to the above questions are both "Yes" then immigration has to be restricted.

BMW, the problem with both those questions is that they suggest a finite supply of both.

Especially in the case of the latter, economic activity begets economic activity.

I agree housing (and public services in general) are a massive issue when it comes to both immigration and population dynamics in general. I don't think stopping immigration altogether will deal with them when the public policy levers currently available are hopelessly inadequate. Officials would only lose a convenient scapegoat.

There are NO immigrants where I live from outside the EU, very few from within the EU. I know 2 people who are not white - both have one white parent. There is lots and lots of space and there are lots of (admittedly seasonal, low level) jobs. The schools have places ( plenty) and there is land for house-building. The problem is, those at Calais and desperate to get to the UK want to be in London or the big cities. They don't want a rural existence in a Scottish corner.

Why are those seeking a better future not encouraged to move away from the centre?

Ah yes the tightening of the visa rules for Commonwealth countries. My family can no longer visit me. They didn't previously need visas to do so but the vast time, expense and travel to get a visitor visa now effectively makes it impossible.
Both my grandfathers fought in the second world war.

Most British people think they have a vague idea about the third world but most have never been and would be shocked to see how little so much of humanity has and how desperate the poverty is that some of these folks are attempting to escape from. Not saying we should welcome all illegal immigrants, most are economic migrants and there is a huge tide of impoverished people living in chaotic countries right on Europes doorstep now. It's frightening how easily Europe could be overwhelmed. It's not racist to say this.

I dont think it is op, in my experience.

It's true that there are massive advantages to immigration, in fact it's only a few years ago that we were worried about our declining and aging population. Having young people, often well educated come to the UK has been of benefit to all. Overall the economy has used the resource and the evidence shows that it hasn't led to higher unemployment in most groups. It has led to growth.

However like everything there are disadvantages. We now have a housing crisis because the UK population has significantly grown. This has led to high prices/ rents and an increased need for housing benefit. There is more competition for jobs amongst young people (including for part time work during studies). We need more capacity in schools/ hospitals.

It isn't a clear good or bad its somewhere in the middle like for most things.

but slaggy it works both ways
British men/women fought in the war alongside the commonwealth countries but we - their children/grandchildren need visas to visit lots of commonwealth countries (such as Australia/Nz) and cannot just immigrate there unless rich/required skill etc.
when I emigrated to Canada in the 70s I had to apply, pass a medical and possess a skill/education that was needed - would not get there now even if I was 40 years younger. came back after 4 years without taking citizenship (mistake of the first order in retrospect)

"And yet I couldn't move back now because of the visa changes as a sop to the "immigration" debate (you need, I think, a Ph.D now to get the highly skilledmigrant visa"

Genuine question as I am not aware. Is it any harder for a non-EU individual to get a visa for the UK than, say, somewhere like Australia? My DP was considering a job in America and we began to look at visa requirements and it looked like a minefield.

you need, I think, a Ph.D now to get the highly skilledmigrant visa

the highly skilled visa program was discontinued years ago.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highly_Skilled_Migrant_Programme

Why thank you Dad :)
Enforcement is a slightly different issue to embarkation. Embarkation controls were largely abandoned in the early 90s. The thinking being that if people, here legally or not, were leaving then it was fine. Why spend money on it?
Enforcement has always been under resourced and disjointed. In ID card carrying nations you can arrest someone for no proof of ID. Simple. Here not carrying ID is not an offence. Ergo there has to be some reasonable suspicion of an offence being committed before any arrest. And even if an arrest is made it can be impossible to return a person. There's inadequate detention space. The whole thing is a mess.

So, why not encourage more even distribution of new arrivals?

Kayden
There is no way on earth I would be allowed into the UK now.
Nor would the parent who brought me.

In fact if I'd not sorted my papers out in time, I could still have been deported because I work part time to allow for raising my British children.

THE UK needs immigrants.
The NHS for a start would collapse without them.

Roseforme
You assume there are no immigrants near you - but there are many like me who are completely invisible if we choose to be.

Why are those seeking a better future not encouraged to move away from the centre?

I think this a really good question - in Australia for many years (not sure if still the case), immigrants in many visa categories had to live outside of the main cities for a set number of years after arrival.

I'm not sure that sort of policy would be as welcomed here?

However I think again it's necessary to differentiate between 'those at Calais' and those seeking to enter illegally will want to be able to disappear into the black economy - meaning big cities.

Jassy
The UK has free movement of people within its borders.
Trying to force people to live where there is no work is stupid.

What the tabloid press likes to forget is that people come to Britain because they want to make a living
they are lawyers and doctors and nurses and engineers and plumbers and builders
and they know that there are jobs here that the British are unable to fill.
the immigrants want to work

and NOTHING they face on the journey is as bad as what they have left behind.

It would make more sense to get them in the door and paying taxes
than keeping them in limbo drawing on taxes.

Imo the UK should take in a lot more asylum seekers and process them much quicker into refugee status.

My experience of seeing people go through this system is for people with lots of skills/education to be left for years, not allowed to work and to be discriminated against and excluded from society (clustered instead of dispersed).

Immigrants I object to are wealthy white (they are always white) 'the world is my global village' types who bounce around extremely high paid jobs throughout the developed world paying little tax (eg the French migrants who descended on London when Hollande upped their taxes).

The non-doms, Russian oligarchs and the 'who knows where from' foreigners who are buying up the top London addresses and inflating the entire market, making life harder for everyone else- these people I have a problem with!

If billionaires love the UK so much we should be charging them a small fortune every time they want to enter the country.

I'd also tighten the restrictions on marriage visas. I know they've got tougher but I still think the system can be exploited by fraudsters who seek out UK citizens for this purpose. And I think there's a wider question about whether we should grant marriage visas at all. Should people have a right to settle wherever they want just because of a romantic relationship? Why is this more socially acceptable than someone (non EU) coming here for work/a better life?