'The only way we've sorted a sleep prob in this house is controlled crying' - fuck off!!

[Smataya]

I text friend who has two under two how hard it's been of late with Ds 11 months just not sleeping. I've explained before he is just not a sleeper and likes to be close at night, wakes a lot for milk and that I'm doing attachment parenting. She knows how against cc I am and I will not ever leave my child to cry. Ds has not slept for longer than an hour since he was 5 months which is starting to take its toll, but as I say, he's just not a sleeper and it's tough.

Why the f is she doing this pa bull shit about cc over text?? She's been like eerr have you tried sleep training to me before and I just don't want to hear it. Her two sleep through and I just find it smug- she's got lucky and now claiming its all down to cc. Am I justified in texting back to say ftfo to the far side of fuck?!?!

Yes, it's the same ISIS that I linked to.

That 'study's shortcomings are there for all to see. It's not a proper scientific study if it has no control group - i.e. it should have had a similar group of 25 babies in the same lab, being put to sleep under the same conditions, who were not being left to CIO.

And most obviously, it is not about CC but CIO ("extinction").

Cortisol levels were elevated even before the start of sleep training.

And in any case, a bit of stress for a few nights does not mean anyone will be damaged for life, as stated clearly on the website of Harvard University's Centre On The Developing Child. If you have reason to believe they are wrong, let's hear it.

I didn't claim it wasnt the same isis- last time I trailed through their research there was thousands of studies- not 1 you've linked to.

Again the Harvard study is one study- there's a Yale study that says ultra sound damages babies in utero- doesn't mean it's fact. It would be impossible to take individual children and know their cortisol levels, how much they may or may not jump by cc or by an over tired over wraught mum. I know my Adhd (& pstd- now nolonger a problem) means I have higher than average cortisol levels, as do my girls, sleep paralysis when they were new borns & excessively stressful pregnancy birth & first few months (especially the feeding problems) will have increased cortisol risks (as well as increasing cortisol recipitors as brain development is use dependant) so if there was any risk from increasing that further from cc then it wasn't for us. Increasing oxytocin was a better approach for us so ncss type of methods worked better. Especially as knowing my children and their hyper sensitive temprement (another genetic consequence passed down from me) cc would have been hours and hours for weeks. As I have dompamine production problems and too high cortisol is linked to inhibiting dopamine it would again be another risk to take, which wasn't for us. On the other hand I have lived my whole life coping with sleep deprivation so coping with that was normal for me. And on demand nursing increases oxytocin for me as well as them so made more sense.

I remember distinctly how being left to cry myself to sleep at old ages made me feel. My girls are far to like me so I wouldn't want to risk them feeling that way. As they inherited my Adhd (many obvious early signs, as well as spd etc) and those of us with ADHD often have ongoing sleep problems then I needed strategies that could be applied through out their childhood- with leaving them to cry, so we stick to the gentle approaches from early on. If I had a child with my partners temprement then I doubt I would have any worries about using cc if sleep was an ongoing problem- although I would like try gentle approaches first as they have been reasonable successful, but I wouldn't worry about any possibility of risk as oh is as placid as they come.

if 'you dont want to hear it' clearly you should not be seeking help or advice from her.
btw we all do 'attachment parenting' it is not something special or different.

It also depends what you claim is damaged- your words. I'd feel for my kids that any increase in their already elevated cortisol levels wouldn't be best for them or their sleep habits- that's a risk I couldn't take with them, I never mentioned damage. I quite clearly said my understand of all of isis compiled research was that there was no proof any increase in cortisol was damaging.

"Again the Harvard study is one study-"

It is not a study. I'm flabbergasted that you have now written not one but two replies to my post without actually reading it.

I thought I was going to feel sorry for you because I've had plenty of unwanted and unsolicited opinions from friends about me formula feeding and purée weaning, but I have to agree that your sleep deprivation has made you overreact here. Perhaps your friend could have phrased her advice in a more gentle way but she was only trying to help. She must know how little sleep you are getting. If you don't want to try and change things and are willing to ride it out until the situation improves on its own then fair enough, and I admire your commitment, but you can't have it both ways and complain about wig without expecting advice - your friends will want to help!

That must be lovely for you, four. I had a "colicky" baby who cried nonstop for 6 months. She was (1) feeding, (2) sleeping, or (3) screaming. It didn't matter if I held her or left her or sang to her or rocked her or whatever. She screamed.

Cote I had a baby like that too. You make great assumptions,

I just didn't resort to CC.

What do you mean resort four as if it is some sort of barbaric torture . As I've said, different strokes for different folks, but no need to bash a parent because you don't agree with their method of parenting, unless they are abusing a child, which is not happening here.

What works for some, does not work fr another, if using CC enables a older baby/toddler self soothe and gives the parents their sanity back who are we to argue. It certainly helped us.

aeroflit- because I would see it as a very last resort. Don't be so touchy.

four - It's not an assumption. You said "If a baby cries he needs comfort", which shows me that you don't know what it's like to have a baby who cries All The Time, every hour that she is awake, whether you hold her or rock her or whatever.

cote- I don't know what that has to do with CC.

Sorry OP but in your situation I would try anything. I would be dead from lack of sleep. Your friend is just being realistic!

I'm sorry you can't follow, four. Maybe re-reading the last couple of posts can help.

I know that I don't feel defensive or the need to justify my approach to sleep with my children in my house. Someone could tell me I'm doing it all wrong, and I can still smile and say 'it works for us'. My children are provided with a loving, gentle, calm atmosphere in which sleep can come to them. Just like we seek out as adults.

No adult here would expect to sob in the dark alone before falling asleep until they finally give up crying after a few nights.

am really sorry as I haven't had time to rtft and someone may well have already mentioned this, but OP are you aware of other sleep training techniques that are just as effective (although slower) than CC? I wouldn't label myself any particular sort of parent but there was no circumstance under which CC would have felt OK for me and for my DD (horses for courses, just not my style and tbh even if it were my DD is the sort of child who would have been sick thirty seconds into screaming so it would have been a pretty defeating experience)

After 11 hideous months of broken sleep, I tried a gradual retreat form of sleep training, yes it took 6 weeks ish as opposed to 2-3 nights BUT IT WORKED, her sleep improved immeasureably from about 3 weeks and she was never left to cry for as much as 3 seconds. In fact she never actually cried at all, she just gradually got the hang of it.

Good luck, I know how hellish it is and it can be depressing when you start to think (because everyone tells you this) that CC is the only way, and if you are not happy with it as a choice it feels very overwhelming.

But there are things you can do that you would almost certainly feel comfortable with that will give you back some control and sanity.

"No adult here would expect to sob in the dark alone before falling asleep until they finally give up crying after a few nights"

No adult here would expect to suck a tit to fall sleep and scream bloody murder if put down, either. So?

Hypotenuse I completely agree.

Hypotenuse how wrong you are, you are not comparing like with like. Obviously that method is nit working for op, so she has to try something else. Not all babies want to sleep in the same bed as their parents, ds most certainly does not and actually preferred his cot to our bed. It is not about leaving a toddler/baby to cry and cry, you go in and sooth them and then go ut again, keep repeating util they drift off to sleep.

OP: my puppy keeps chewing the couch

Naturalpuppies website: Oh, it's okay, it's because he's sad and lonely. Just cuddle him for hours on end and he will become more secure and more loved. And you will feel like the naturalpuppyowner you really are.

Everyone else: Just train your puppy not to. It doesn't take long, everyone will be happier knowing who is boss, including your growing dog.

Naturalpuppies website: How heartless! That poor dog! Your are showing conditional love. I've never heard anything so cruel.

Everyone else:

Airoflot hypotenuse disagrees with you, that doesn't make her wrong.
We parent in different ways. It's not about who is "wrong".

I happen to agree with her approach, if my baby or toddler was crying I would do my best to soothe that cry. I don't want to use the CC method.
It's not a method that would fit with my parenting.

That's up to you four, as I said it woukdent be used if tge child was ill, the child cries a little abd eventually goes to sleep. you do sooth the child, you don't just leave him to cry and cry, you just don't pick up at night and stimulate them when they are meant to be asleep. It's about teaching them thus. You will do anything if you have no sleep day in day out and have to function On a daily basis, especially if you have to be at work.

I would find another method to maintain sleep, without the use for CC.

Hypotenuse, how wonderful that you have been able to create such great sleep hygiene for your children, if we had all had the foresight if you there would be no need for this thread.

Sadly, with the best intentions some of us have created less than desirable sleep situations, that require change that those involved may naturally resist.

Perhaps you could write a book so would enable all new parents to do as you did thus ensuring no need for cc/cio or any other sleep training

That's up to you four, but please don't make CC out to be some barbaric method as its not, it's a perfectly reasonable solution. Usually people do it when other methods have tried and failed, they then use it for their next one as they found it works for them.

Why did you contact her if you know that she uses cc and you're so against it? Perhaps you should rethink AP as I don't think it's helping you