'The only way we've sorted a sleep prob in this house is controlled crying' - fuck off!!

[Smataya]

I text friend who has two under two how hard it's been of late with Ds 11 months just not sleeping. I've explained before he is just not a sleeper and likes to be close at night, wakes a lot for milk and that I'm doing attachment parenting. She knows how against cc I am and I will not ever leave my child to cry. Ds has not slept for longer than an hour since he was 5 months which is starting to take its toll, but as I say, he's just not a sleeper and it's tough.

Why the f is she doing this pa bull shit about cc over text?? She's been like eerr have you tried sleep training to me before and I just don't want to hear it. Her two sleep through and I just find it smug- she's got lucky and now claiming its all down to cc. Am I justified in texting back to say ftfo to the far side of fuck?!?!

Attachment parenting also states that the parent should rely on their instinct and intuition and apply boundaries

Bowlbys work was based on working with children who had severe developmental issues due to neglect, this neglect related to children never being responded to or spoken to and failing to form a relationship with a care giver, it is not based on a parent trying to get an 11 month year old to sleep for longer than an hour

Kayden

I am with you, I too have saw the effects of poor attachment and none of them are reflected in the situation we are talking about here!

You poor thing op. Having that level of sleep deprivation at 11 months. As others have said that is a form of torture

However, yabu

Your friend is just telling you what worked for her.

I didn't actually do it with mine. Dd was a bad sleeper (but not as bad as yours after she was healthy - that bit is a long story ). We did a sort of cc but not really just for bedtime and that helped the night waking. But I did that when she was two. At age 1 we night weaned her by giving water from a bottle at night. That worked surprisingly well and easily -it was very no tears - and she started sleeping much better. She has always been a child with alot of energy though, and all illness and disturbance did affect her sleep.

With ds we didn't need do any "methods " to make him sleep. He was ff from 8 months though. He is a naturally good sleeper I guess, but we do include "tiring the crap out of him" and only do one daily nap at 18 months.

I would be prepared to do cc with a really bad sleeper though. You both need sleep. You have a right to sleep and not to sacrifice yourself completely. You could crash the car or have any number of accidents being so very tired.

What about trying some no tears methods and seeing if they work first of all?

Attachment parenting also states that the parent should rely on their instinct and intuition and apply boundaries

I think that this is one of the main reasons why I don't believe CC has a place in child raising.

There are numerous threads posted by parents trying CC, in the middle of it, scared of doing it, wanting support to continue...often, very often in fact they say something along the lines of 'This is breaking my heart' or 'I can't take any more of it' or 'I know it is for the best but I am sobbing too'.

This doesn'tsuggest to me that they are following their instincts. It sounds VERY much like they are going directly against them, for some arbitrary notion of control or necessity in some cases.

Instincts universally instruct parents or most species to go to their young when they cry. Its very basic and should not, IMO, ever be messed with.

But there are different kinds of crying.

I went in straight away for scared crying, properly upset sobbing and poorly crying.

I didn't go in for bored crying, angry crying or tired crying.

It's common sense to me.

lennon can you not write a concise argument in your own words, is that why you rely on cutting and pasting such nonsense from websites which are so poorly researched that no scientific community in the world would give them any credibility

Don't mistake the websites you are reading for actual evidence based research...which shows that it is possible to raise happy, loved and securely attached children without waking up every 2 hrs to comfort them back to sleep. There is no actual evidence that sleep training has any ill effects...

Ther is a wealth of difference between leaving a child to cry for a few minutes to teach them how to sleep versus the sever neglect and abuse of a child that would cause an actual attachment disorder

sophiesdog in very young babies, absolutely, their needs should be responded to and they should not be left to cry for any length of time

Once they are a bit older and can start understanding boundaries and bedtime...then I would disagree with you. !eaving them to cry for short periods or time and them learning that you will come back but that they need to learn to sleep on their own is not a bad thing and it is certainly not abuse or neglect.

Just a question Op, that someone else has raised, are you co-sleeping? We co-slept with ours and they moved to their beds when they were ready, it meant everyone got a good nights sleep.

I just want him to be secure and happy and a bit of sleep deprivation seems a small price to pay.

OP I'm sorry but it's cruel not to enable your baby to learn to sleep better. You need to help him. Controlled crying worked for me. Your baby must be just as knackered as you are. Be less rigid in your approach and be kind to yourself. And don't assume that sleep deprivation for either of you is 'a small price to pay'

ScrumpyBetty I think until they are steadfastly aware of object permanence then yes, you can get away with leaving them to cry for a very short while before you affect their ultimate trust in you too much.

Babies under a year aren't really there yet afaik with this.

Besides which I would tend to go with 'only when necessary' as in, if I'm on the toilet and can't go to him, or something else that on balance can't be interrupted, iyswim? Then it will occur gradually over time like a plaster coming off a bit more each time you have a bath.

Ripping it off metaphrically can only, in my view, be a bad thing, for the child and the parent.

Op at six months my ds woke every 45 minutes. I went to see Andrea grace and she made a plan for me, no crying. Within 5 weeks he was sleeping 12 hours. If you can spare £300 I highly recommend her

here

OP I'm sorry but it's cruel not to enable your baby to learn to sleep better

I'm sorry too, but that statement is utter rubbish, and very offensive.

sophie you are the one talking rubbish

Answer me this- would you advocate that a parent continue to wake up every hour throughout the night, becoming so sleep deprived and miserable that it effects their ability to parent and function and their mood becomes low, sometimes suicidal (this was me when DS was 14 months) and having tried all gentle sleep methods including Pantley

Versus: allowing the child to cry for short periods of time (no more than5 mins in my case) for 3 nights resulting in better sleep for all and a better functioning, healthy, happy mum???

Babies need sleep for their development.

I had assumed the OP was exaggerating when she said her baby had not slept for more than an hour in 6 months. Perhaps she could clarify?

What The Dowager says.

Why continue with a method that so clearly isn't working for mum or baby?

Sophie how are you actually helping the OP by underestimating the impact of this on her life?

Actually m baby genuinely did wake up hourly and had done from 6 months right up til we night weaned and did cc at 22 months. He had had health problems when you get that meant I had to delay weaning so he was still ebf at a year and thus learnt bad sleep habits. It's not his fault, it's mind for shoving boob in each time he wakes 'for an easy life', a big big mistake.

Not only did I cc but also drugged him using the phenergen when I went to the GP suicidal through lack of sleep and problems at work due to mistakes made through lack of sleep. He gave ds meds rather than me, and it enabled him to start the night with a blick if 3 hours sleep, which made a massive difference and gave us a good base to start from.

I realise it is extreme but it might be worth chatting to your GP to see what support is available

^typos

Strangechild at no point have I tried to suggest that the impact on her life is not significant. I have suggested ways in which it is possible to moderate the impact, because I understand how horrible it can be to have to attend to a child in the night, especially one that's unwilling to cooperate with your expectations or plans.

OP, do you ever drive a vehicle with your child inside it? Do you ever operate a cooker? Extreme sleep deprivation is dangerous and poses a risk to you and your child.

How can it possibly be healthy for your child to never sleep for more than one hour at a time?

How can you possibly be a good, involved and stimulating parent when you are like a warmed-up corpse all day long?

Can a bit of crying for a couple of nights possibly be worse or riskier than your current situation?

You need to be the mum here, and "put on your own oxygen mask before helping others." For your child's good as well as your own.

Seriously, if my child didn't sleep for more than an hour, literally, day or night, ever, at the age of 11 months I wouldn't be doing CC. I'd be trying to establish what the fuck was causing them not to sleep.

If it's that extreme than CC probably isn't the blimming answer is it.

I mean yes children sometimes have a few nights when they are unable to settle, and need to feed very often - we had a night like that last night in fact, for a few hours till about midnight when I think he finally drifted off properly for a few hours before needing another feed.

That is unavoidable at times and it can seem to go on for weeks but I honestly do not think it likely or usual in a healthy child not to be able to sleep for at least a period of two to three hours overnight, on occasion, at this age.

I'd really like the OP to clarify because it is pretty central to the thread.

Also far be it from me to suggest the OP isn't being truthful. I would not want to do that but it isn't clear to me whether or not she might be exaggerating.

I often tell people I have had 'no sleep' when really it's a case of not having had much sleep. Or feeling like I haven't. Or not sleeping very deeply. So I hope it is a valid question.

sophie

This was the case with my friends child. She had been to HV and doctors but there didn't appear to be anything "wrong" with him

She did cranial osteopathy through a local clinic and he started sleeping for 6 hours in the night

It was quite a long time ago and I only met her because the health visitor asked me to chat to her about having non sleeping children (though her situation was much, much, much worse) but I think he was about 18months old