to ask why, if it's generally accepted to be the behaviour of a twat, do parents exclude a couple of kids from class parties?

[Chippedrippedandstinking]

Inspired by Lappy's thread, we all agree it's wrong and yet it happens. With flame amnesty, will abuone admit to doing it, and if so, why?
And if it happened to you, did you call the parents on it?

I've only seen it once, the mother was taken aside and an invitation was issued.

This thread made me wonder something. Why, in every other sphere, does mumsnet rightly condemns victim blaming. But in the case of bullying:

They must have provoked them (they asked for it)
It's on both sides
It's exaggerated
The bully isn't really a bully, they probably have SN
You have to think of the bully's feelings before the victim's
The victim has to change their plans, to avoid upsetting the bully

Ever likely bullying victims can feel that their lives are totally destroyed, if nobody believes them, or sticks up for them.

You referenced my post about my only interference this year being that they were not to feel obliged to invite the girl who had been horrible to them all year. The Pizza Hut story followed, I presumed, as an example of how that could have backfired on me, so I was explaining how unlikely that was

What on earth is wrong with allowing my DC autonomy over their birthday party invites? If they'd insisted that they did want to invite the unpleasant girl, I would have let them. I would have watched her like a hawk, but their party - their guests.

lurked i just typed a long post in reply to you then deleted it by accident aaah hate it when that happens.

i think it is time for bed !

What on earth is wrong with allowing my DC autonomy over their birthday party invites?

nothing - but you may end up sitting there watching while a perfectly nice girl whom your dd doesn't like realises that the entire rest of the class is invited to a birthday party and only she is excluded. I would certainly supervise a birthday party invite list to make sure that didn't happen. Not only would I not want another child to feel like that but I wouldn't want my child to end up doing that to someone else.

I think you are assuming your child would never exclude someone except i that child was awful. I wouldn't assume that.

Not every excluded child is a bitch or a bully or a violent nasty piece of work. Many times a child is excluded because they are a bit eccentric or awkward or just not cool.

TBH, and I've said this a lot on this thread, my priority at my DC's birthday parties is my DC. Not someone else's DC, mine. I am happy for my DC to manage their own social interactions. If that means they make mistakes, then it's a learning opportunity. Too many parents want to micromanage their children and the children never get the chance to get it wrong. If they got it wrong and unintentionally caused upset, then I would encourage them to put it right. Parents interfering too much in friendships builds up all sorts of trouble. I prefer to let them take control of these things - at the end of the day it's just a party.

nocool I don't think anyone has been victim blaming, or not that I've seen. Just pointing out that what constitutes mean or bullying in the eyes of a small child ( and in some cases their doting parents) isn't actually bullying at all. Because some kids do provoke, exaggerate, are equally responsible, misinterpret, tell outright lies, not see the others reasons etc etc and therefore call a normal childish fall out bullying. None of that takes away from real bullying or the rights of an actual victim, but it does explain why its not on to jump to the conclusion it's bullying just because there's an unfounded accusation or one child cries.

Eviltwin, you have your own way of rearing your children and I respect that. I do suspect that your children are not likely to be on the receiving end of the "unintentional upset" but are socially successful. It is a different perspective when you have to tell your own child "it is just a party darling, it doesn't matter if everyone else was invited, it doesn't mean they dislike you" It is hard to say that with any real ring of truth.

Lurked

Speaking as someone who used to be a victim of bullying, it certainly feels like victim blaming. Not suggesting that all exclusions from parties were for this reason, but the number of people blithely ignoring that this is the reason for some of them, and giving all sorts of reasons it can't be true...sorry, but sometimes it most definitely is.

I hate seeing kids having their childhood and schooling destroyed by bullying. And it's unfortunate how often it comes as a total surprise even to the parents that part of the reason their child just tried to kill themselves/is school refusing/behaviour has gone of the rails is that they have been the victim of a sustained campaign of bullying.

nocool I fully agree. I also think a lot of questions have been dodged. I asked earlier about how far is too far for this bully to go before its deemed serious enough. Mentioned how I was sexually assaulted by my bully. No answers funnily enough.

And this leave out a couple deliberately from the class based on the biased and uninformed opinion of a young child I find incredibly sad. So what your child says is that irrelevant to you? If they came to you about being bullied you wouldn't take it seriously?

"HMSMostLeaky out of interest was your son excluded? And if he was invited, did he go along (only asking as you say his social abilities and language)"

Invited where? When he was invited to a party we would bend over backwards to make it happen because they were so rare. He loved them and was always very excited.

For those who say why shouldn't their child choose? I have no problem with that so long as the parent makes sure that it isn't one or two from one group (say the girls in that class) are excluded. So if you have eight invites and there are nine girls then invite some people from elsewhere or from another class or some boys. I have been happy to say "no, we aren't inviting 8 boys from your class because that means two don't get to go and that would feel personal. Why should adults get involved and do that? Because most kids need to be taught that social rule and why it exists.

Oh and while we are talking about victims and bullying etc. It isn't always as straightforward as it seems. Ds's primary school thought he was bullying his best friend (only friend pretty much that year, would not have deliberately hurt him no matter what) and a teacher had seen him punch the kid. Understandably I was called and school took it very seriously. My son was not able to speak for himself because of stress and so it just had to go on what had been observed. I was told that they were going to exclude him for the next day then he would need to meet with the head, class teacher and his friend.

He was very very quiet until we got to the car and he started sobbing but would/could not tell me why or even answer simple questions. It took several hours and much persuasion on my part to get the story out of him. It turned out that he was being bullied and coerced by a group of kids in his class led by a popular kid. They had bullied him into punching his friend. He had tried to pull his punch to satisfy the group that he was punching but not hurt his friend but had misjudged and walloped him and now his friend wasn't speaking to him either and he felt awful for hurting his friend and was worried about him. No doubt his friend went home, told his mum and his mum most probably thought that her son had been bullied by mine.I think despite the school talking to both boys and explaining what happened and working with them on how to handle that sort of thing in future and the parents and the group of kids picking on my son the mother still held a grudge.

So yeah if you want, my kid could be that kid that was a bully. He was the only boy excluded from that class that year at that party. I'm sure the mother felt completely justified.

HMS you say your son wouldn't deliberately hurt his friend, but actually he did exactly that, TBH I wouldn't exclude a child for a one of incident paticularly if the school had explained it all to me, bullying to me is sustained behaviour. All the same I doubt the other child wanted to be friends anymore with a boy who punched him for no reason, presumably it could happen again. You are clearly backing your son in this, and she is backing hers. Nothing wrong with either position, its natural.

I think that people expect far more maturity in the under 10s than you get with many adults!
It was a learning curve HMS's son didn't know how to handle the situation he now knows what not to do. Meanwhile the real bullies, who pressurised him into it, remain party guests. This is the problem with bullying. There are highly intelligent children who are very manipulative and yet remain 'squeaky clean' in the eyes of adults. I know a 6 yr old boy who controlled all the boys in the class and caused a lot of misery until he was rumbled. It took a while because he was well behaved, inoffensive and intelligent. Once he was found out he stopped.

Of course my childs opinion isn't irrelevant. But when she told me someone was mean/ hit her/ wasn't her friend, we talked about what had happened and maybe why etc. I didn't start on the basis my child was faultless and must therefore be an innocent victim. And not all parents do that.
In y1 dd had a phase when she screamed, shouted, snatched from and once attacked x the poor little sensitive girl in her class. Poor pitiful x had ran crying to the teachers and her parents at nasty mini lurked being horrid and getting her friends to be horrid too.
The day after dd had hit and kicked her and was upset at being told off I went into school in dds defence and in polite terms pointed out the root cause was x was a snivelling pfb and my dd had good reason to attack her as do the other kids to be horrid.
Bet you're reading thinking I'm the vile parent of a bully? Wrong.
The actual truth was that x was used to her own way. So situations like x taking a liking to dds bf, and telling dd to go away because she wanted to play with just bf, weren't met well. X then turned on the tears and told her untruthful account. Or x saying in an undertone to my dd 'I hate you go away' would be responded to with the same words, but at full pitch for all to hear, and poor x would then cry. Or when x got a tiny bit of dds skin and twisted, leaving a bruise, dd resorted to hitting and kicking her to get x to let go. All anyone saw and heard was dds 'attack'. The other children being horrid was nothing to do with dd, a few were independently on the receiving end of the same treatment from x. Others were eg saying yes, you can join in with our game but we aren't stopping to play the one you say, therefore were 'horrid' Dds group of friends were loyal enough ( or more likely drawn to dds fun company over x) that when x told them all not to play with her they didn't listen.
All along dd had told the full version, x had told her version. Although school had in their minds fairly told off mean dd and others, they agreed to actually covertly watch. Because according to x the fact several children's versions matched was down to dd making them lie. X was spotted approaching dd, and then proceeding to whisper something followed by pulling dds hair supposedly out of sight. Dd responded in kind, but openly. Funnily enough x's account of nasty mini lurked didn't match up to what staff saw. And the same thing happened with other situations of dds supposed bullying, and a few others x had decided she was victim to. But I bet x and her doting parents still think of it as their daughter, victim of bullying. Whereas it was actually dd and a couple of others that were the victims and if they hadn't already been popular and fun would have ended up isolated if x had her way. All while x was being pitied as the victim.
Likewise dd like many other children has had silly fall outs, and we discuss things like yes, it was rude of y to say 'but I want to sit there move now' however the better solution would have been 'I'll move up and share but I'm not getting up' rather than 'you and who's army says I should move you loser'. Her and one friend could get the other hung drawn and quartered the things they've said and done to each other, if either was given to telling edited accounts and lying about their own involvement, or if any of us parents were inclined to treat our child as faultless and the other as mean.

Again, I don't mean that's what I read into anyones posts, real actual bullying does occur and is vile. just pointing out the other side of the coin where there are accusations. I've got no reason to doubt anyone on here saying their child was an actual victim, or that they have a closed mind to their childs faults, but in real life at infants age it can work like that in some cases. To me and I'm sure plenty of others on this thread 'mummy y is mean' is responded to with a conversation on why etc. But in rl not everyone does they immediately rush to the defence of their angelic child.
Real bullying should not be trivialised by doting parents making silly accusations, actual bullying is not trivial. But that doesn't mean every accusation should be blindly believed either, because on the other end there's a child being unfairly labelled a bully.

Why are you therefore expecting the completely innocent child who got walloped to have the maturity to know how to handle having the person who unprovokedly hit them at their party? If it was as HMS described, then if the school properly informed the assaulted child's parents of events, then I would suggest they should have also excluded the manipulators. But invite someone of whom the poor kid may now be scared in case it happened again??!?

I'm going to leave this thread. Because this morning I literally woke up crying, shaking, and screaming for help, having had a nightmare flashing back to a particularly nasty bullying episode. I haven't done that in decades, so presume it's this bloody thread stirring up memories. But that's how deep the impact of bullying can go.

I don't dispute for a minute it does nocool. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't make distinctions between actual bullying and false accusations. Or make it ok for some actual real victims to be labeled bullies because a crafty child has orchestrated it. All the more so I would have thought so everyone can put their focus on dealing with/ preventing the true cases and supporting the victims.

And to add if my child was the one hit by hms I'd hope to talk to her about why and how it happened, and how other people's manipulation shouldn't spoil a lovely friendship etc and compare with her that one instance to all the other pleasant instances, and why there's no need to be scared of him etc and dealt with that way I bet many children would forgive. Because forgetting the fact as an adult I'd sympathise with hms ds, I don't want my dd thinking bearing grudges is healthy. If she ever forms grudges I'd prefer it to be for really unforgivable deliberate actions, not against other children that didn't know what they were doing.

As I see it, I have 2 children, 1 was bullied, school admitted it and failed to intervene. Child 2 was accused and it turns out crying x would put on a master acting class. My point being that in both cases teachers did not listen, did not get the full account, did not treat the kids equally, child 2 was yelled at, but when I told them the truth of crying child demanding others kick and punch my child, he wasnt even spoken too. school have a massive reponsiblity and they dont handle these situations, if anything they make it worse. They do not have to record these incidents. Schools should have teacher training, recorded incidents, 1 main person in charge so a full picture is given. They should inform parents of all incidents where a child is hurt, and parents should be given a right to speak to their child and report back. Teacher knew my child had been attacked the week before, but he didint speak up, she said he lacks confidence to speak out (actually as she keeps shouting at him, he is less inclined to do so) She should there for know to give him time and ask the right questions ... what happened before, how did y react, who else saw...blah

Why would any parent care? I have 3 kids, parties always at home, low key, 8-15 kids (depending on time of year, our house is tiny) including my own and some siblings. When did birthdays become this complicated? I send invites by text message 2-3 weeks before, do all the food and traditional games. It is supposed to be fun. You invite your friends, have a nice afternoon, and that is it.

If my kids went to full class parties I would be going to 90 a year. I don't have the time, money, energy or enthusiasm for that.

As would I lurked. Although I would also quite understand if he no longer wanted to be best friends with someone who had punched him.

Lucy, you do know what I meant by trying to pull his punch so he wouldn't hurt him, right? He was trying not to hurt him, therefore he wouldn't deliberately hurt him.

Here's the thing, the boys remained good friends until their family moved away. The son did understand and they made up. When the family have returned their son has run up and hugged mine. But the mother still plans visits with other former friends but not mine.

Oh and yeah. The ringleader was invited.

I couldn't let DS1 choose his own party guests at 4 because he was hopeless at remembering names! the ones from playgroup were easy enough because of course I knew them too and he'd known them longer; but the ones from preschool - no. I would ask him who he played with - he didn't remember. I would ask him who he got on with - he couldn't remember their name. The only child/boy whose name he successfully remembered each and every time was the boy with behavioural difficulties, who was a bit rough and intimidating (but not an outright bully). As a result, no one from his preschool was invited to his 5th birthday party, unless we also knew them from playgroup.
Once he got to school it was easier because of the class list. I started asking him who he wanted to invite but he couldn't remember - until I got the list out and we went through it.
As far as I know he doesn't have any LDs of any kind, he's just not very good at remembering stuff, especially when put under pressure. He's fine if you don't ask him about it (exams are going to be SUCH FUN whenever he gets around to them, if this persists :( )

I'm not sure I would lucy. I'd understand her saying that day she was no longer best friends, but I'd be dissapointed if one blip that wasn't even done for malice spoilt their relationship.
hms all credit to the boy being friends still with a mother with that attitude.

Oops, forgot to refresh, things have moved on again.

DS1 has a weird thing of being friends with the kids who are most likely to pick on/hurt him - his first year at school, he was always hanging around this other boy who was over a year older than him (here, they're allowed to delay school entry if it's felt they're not ready, so long as they're in FT education by the time they're 6). DS1 quite often came home with "interesting" bruises/cuts, and after close questioning, lots of upset and quite a lot of fibs, it would turn out that this boy was frequently involved in Ds1's hurt. I watched them once, we were there at the school for some parent interaction thing, and got to see them at recess/playtime - that child would trip Ds1, hit him (maybe playful punches, maybe not) aimed a kick at him that luckily didn't connect.
Now as it happens I do know there are some LDs in this particular child, but I still don't see why mine should end up being his punchbag. I know DS1 still hangs around with him sometimes but not as much, and the damage appears to have mostly stopped now they're a couple of years older; and this child was invited to DS1's first school party because DS1 wanted him to come. Luckily, he didn't turn up (no RSVP either, his mother lacks manners) so any problems from that quarter were avoided.
The following year he wasn't in DS1's class, but he's back in it this year - not sure how I'm going to deal with it when the time comes! Of course I'll let DS1 invite him if he wants to, but with the proviso that he's not to be disappointed if the boy doesn't come (again).

I'm not sure why DS1 likes to be friends with people who hurt him, really, I don't know. It's clearly not for protection!

Lurked, he was a lovely young man, rather hyper and often annoying but kind and smart.

Looking back now I can't say that I 100% regret the incident. It was horrid for his friend of course and I'm truly sorry about that. I think both boys learned a lot from it though. The head and the teacher responsible for the social curriculum at the school had the two boys for lunch on several occasions and worked with them on strategies to deal with peer pressure and bullying in the future. Gave them lots of practise at diffusing trouble.

Honestly I think the family was not all that fond of my kid before it happened. I think they invited him round for tea because their son wanted them to. I think this was the straw that broke the camel's back. My kid was hard to handle at that age. He is very poor at interpreting the body language that many people use to modify children's behaviour and make them settle down. He needs very explicit instructions on things and most people don't do that, especially with other people's children. The thing that surprised me though was that their son is cut out of very similar cloth to mine. Things that irritated them about my son their own son did too. Their son was also hard work when he came to visit (my older son describes him as a slinky that springs all over the place).