to ask why, if it's generally accepted to be the behaviour of a twat, do parents exclude a couple of kids from class parties?

[Chippedrippedandstinking]

Inspired by Lappy's thread, we all agree it's wrong and yet it happens. With flame amnesty, will abuone admit to doing it, and if so, why?
And if it happened to you, did you call the parents on it?

I've only seen it once, the mother was taken aside and an invitation was issued.

So the child wants 28 children at their party, from the thirty in their class - maybe they get on well with all of them. But they have to exclude 8 children they like so they can also exclude the child who bullies them - is that what you are saying? How is that fair to the bully's victim?

Having been not only the bullies' victim, but also the parent of the bully's victim, I can tell you how bloody painful it is to watch your own child suffering. Ds2 was bullied in junior school, when from the age of about 9 until he left, by one particular boy. The school did try to deal with it - but only after I happened to be in the school during the day (reading with ds3's class) and saw ds2 walking to assembly. He was a pale, sad shadow of my son - I had never seen this because the relief at getting out of school each day had taken over by the time I saw him in the playground - but he was a totally different child inside the school.

It broke my heart - and maybe I am not a good person, but I cannot see why I would have to consider that child's feelings above my son's. If he had wanted all the boys in his class, bar this one, at his party, I would have said yes. I had to send him to school each day, into the presence of this boy, and all I could do was to keep on at the school to make sure they were dealing with it, and support my ds at the same time. There is no way on God's clean earth that I would want to force him into that child's presence on a day that is supposed to be about him, celebrating his birthday.

So I am not a better person. But I am a person who has lived through bullying (in junior school as well as senior - my bullies started when I moved house, before the last year of primary school), and who has had to deal with my children being bullied. It is shit, and I refuse to care for the bullies' feelings more than my own children's feelings.

I read fanjos posts as meaning just show some consideration and make reasonable allowances, rather than 'you must always include a child with sn no matter what'. Eg if dd had an nt friend that behaved in the way a friend with adhd often does, truthfully I'd be getting a bit exasperated by now. But because the behavior doesn't stem from doting parents praising her 'spirited and confident' personality ( cos that's how they always describe their spoilt nuisances) then it's not a case of patronisingly being a nice pc parent and inviting her anyway, it's just a case of its dds friend who shouldn't be judged by nt standards about some aspects of her behaviour. Neither did it cross my mind to find the mum precious about her dietary needs, in the way I would if I was informed 'darling petronella must only eat organic wholegrains, none of your common lasagne'
greys I don't think anyone is saying real bullying doesn't happen or should go unchecked. But people crying wolf does nothing to add to the actual case. And at a very basic level, if some poor teacher is fielding complaints about someone's pfb having a minor fall out or self instigated upset, and therefore being bullied, it gives them far less time to deal with the actual real bullying cases. Plus the individuals who've cried wolf are less likely to be believed if in future they are actually bullied.
And let's not forget, labelling a child a bully purely because you won't accept your pfb isn't owed their own way continuously by other children or because you refuse to acknowledge your pfb is far from faultless, is a pretty shitty thing to do to another child, and in my mind is an adult bullying an innocent child.
Again I don't mean I'm reading that into anyones posts, or dismissing real bullying, just explaining why people believe the term is over used to everyones detriment.

That is exactly what I meant lurked

Don't change the rules Boney I replied to your remark about exclusion for haircuts, clothes or shoes- you have now changed to behaviour.
I covered behaviour earlier- it is never a sudden exclusion - they have to work through a set procedure.

Mehitabel6

All I am doing is responding to your post that children are not excluded in primary schools, I hadn't realised that you were making "rules". And I didn't say that it was a sudden exclusion, but then bullying is rarely sudden nor is it something that happens only once.

The child is never going to get on well with 28 children out of 30 equally. They never do. Ask them for the class list- once they have slowed down and have to really think about it- those children are not real friends- they are classmates they get on reasonably well with.

I can't be bothered to go back and cut and paste but you most definitely said 'what about exclusion for hair, clothes and shoes' - I responded to that and said you were thinking secondary. I wouldn't have said that for behaviour. I think it very unfair to post one question and then make out I was replying to one not asked.

boney because even before mehitabel explained there was strict procedure and that its for safety not revenge, I guessed that would be the case. A teacher would not get away with leaving a child out on hearsay, or because they or their 'teachers pet' were spiteful and looked for offence everywhere, or because that child annoyed them a bit last week and they wanted petty revenge. However some ( not all and not directed at anyone here) will leave a child out on those grounds because obviously parents don't have to answer for leaving one out like teachers would.

Mehitabel, I have said before that I have never invited the whole class. And that's true for dc1.

dc2 however has social communication issue which means he can't relate easily with his peers and make friends in the way we normally think about it.

So his b'day parties have always been the whole boys group so that we knew thjat at least some of the children would come. I also always chose something that I knew the other boys would like. So we had a few years of having football parties for his b'day.

Now what the heck do I do if one of the boiys in his class is very disruptive as it has been the case this year?
I can invite oonly a few. This resulted in a cancelled party as a group of people of saud they were coming just decided they had something better in the end. 4 days before the event.
If I had invitted all (bar one) bouys, dc2 wouyld have had a party instead....

Would it have been crap for the child left out? YES
Has it been crap for dc2? A big YES again.

Nothing is that clear cut is it?

I never said that children are not excluded from primary school for behaviour either. They are. They are not excluded for the wrong shoes.

Fanjo thanks for the clarification.

I have to say I really didn't understand your post that way. I took it more as 'well you know how it is on the other side so why on earth do you think it would be OK to exclude a child?'

Thank you for making your comment clearer. We are clearly thinking along the same lines fater all! :)

Thought so fanjo

The relationship and AIBU boards have plenty of threads where adult women complain about the behaviour of people that they have to socialise with (usually MIL) . Many posters quite rightly ask if they can get out of future meeting or go NC.

I can't see how those threads are any different to children having to have a child that they don't like at their party. Having bullychild attend can ruin the party for partychild and realistically a couple of hours of partymumhost distracting bullychild isn't going to make a jot of difference to bully child's behaviour. It's only good for the self esteem of bullychild and partymumhost.

Mehitabel6

I was responding to the part of your post about primary, you do not need to cut and paste because I am know what I posted and am able to link together different parts of a discussion.

I was pointing out that children are also excluded in primary school.

I will now post (again) that most (some) of the parents that leave children out for parties believe that they have sufficient reason to do so. In response to the post by Lurked @ 12:17.

I have also posted that bullying is not always clear cut.

Even if that person was being verbally and physically abusive at school?

Depends what you mean by physically and verbally abusive.

I would certainly include a 6 year old with asd who sometimes acts inappropriately, hits out or says the wrong thing (although I might ask a parent to stay if they needed support). I am sure that some people would whitewash excluding such a child as 'not inviting the bully'.

I do think bullying happens, and sometimes schools are appalling at managing behaviour and this leads to bullying. However, it doesn't happen nearly as much as is claimed.

I was pointing out that children are also excluded in primary school.

Very rarely and only in extreme cases - not nearly as often as children are socially excluded.

To me, there is a clear difference between behaviour that is due to a special need, and bullying behaviour - and it is in intent. IMO bullying is deliberate - a choice on the part of the bully to be nasty to their victim repeatedly over weeks, months or even years, whereas a child who has a condition like ASD that leads them to lash out or behave inappropriately, is NOT doing it deliberately.

If someone is deliberately hurting me or my child, I reserve the right to exclude them.

And they are never excluded for wearing the wrong shoes.

It's always the same 'type' of mum who thinks this is ok. Loud,brash,over confident with the knowledge her 'inner circle' will support her so it doesn't matter who she leaves out.
Dd's close friend had an Easter egg hunt party and left out dd but invited majority of the girls in the class even though she didn't want to she 'had' to apparently bc her mum said so!! Shocking. She has massively gone down in my estimation anyway I don't trust her at all.

Mehitabel or anyone else
Please could you explain:

• why parents should tell the birthday child to forego inviting 8 of the children from his class, to appease his bully?

-Why should those 8 children miss out to spare the feelings of the bully?

-why it is a good idea for parents to model appeasing someone who is cruel to you?

-why parents should not empower their child to demonstrate that bullying them has consequences?

Mehitabel6
"And they are never excluded for wearing the wrong shoes."

If this is your winning point then your point really is in difficulty.

How about this I was talking about secondary school this however doesn't mean that my point about children being excluded from playtime or golden time at primary was incorrect.

merrymouse

I was talking about exclusion within the school not permanent exclusion from the school.

We left out 2 children from DS' reception class after a few months. They were both naughty, aggressive and had completely useless parents who did nothing to control their behaviour.

After a couple of months of inviting all 15 children to parties, we got together and just decided to leave these two children out. Invites weren't handed out at school. One of the said children has since been expelled from the school (aged 8) and the other moved away.
I think it was the parents not doing anything more than the children themselves that was the issue.

It's really a sad massive failure on part of school if a child with ASD is hitting so much they are thought of as a bully and (sadly understandably ) missed out from parties. The child would be doing this through stress and total failure to meet their needs. Also sad for the kids being hit obviously.

Dd is at school with kids with severe autism. She has once been hit..she cried and a child with noise sensitivity lashed not and hit her face, but otherwise nothing.

My post about doing right thing was really to people who don't invite a child with SN as "my child isnt friends with them" or i'm embarrassed to ask their parent to come..so inviting the "easy" kids is easiest option .

If a tiny child is actually bullying I feel sorry for them and of course the other child too.

Everyone will of course keep their child safe above all else.

But I will always favour trying to accommodate others if it can be done with just a bit of effort..of course not at a heavy cost to your child.

If there's a child who has no friends because they act differently or they get quite anxious or have sensitivities you don't understand then I would still want people to go out of their comfort zone and ask them.

Because hardly anyone does.