to ask why, if it's generally accepted to be the behaviour of a twat, do parents exclude a couple of kids from class parties?

[Chippedrippedandstinking]

Inspired by Lappy's thread, we all agree it's wrong and yet it happens. With flame amnesty, will abuone admit to doing it, and if so, why?
And if it happened to you, did you call the parents on it?

I've only seen it once, the mother was taken aside and an invitation was issued.

Really Fanjo? Really.

'do the right thing', 'don't take the easy way' > guilt trip.

'its between you and your conscience' > you don't have to say the word guilty, the fact you mentioned conscience at all tells us exactly what you think Fanjo.

No-one is projecting, we're having s discussion. I could say you're projecting the fact you have a child with SN couldn't i? But I don't think that, I think it's valid to the discussion. so please don't try and belittle our posts by claiming they're merely projections.

merrymouse You wouldn't think the word bully was overused if it was you or your child experiencing it though would you? Lets call a spade a spade.

Exactly, Lurked. The parents will have been involved and there will have been an agreement where school and parent are working together. Most parents want to help their child. They will have discussed trips. Excluding will be the last resort if they can't manage them out of school for health and safety reasons. They don't suddenly do it - and take almost a delight as in 'now you know what it feels like'!

My comments about do the right thing and don't take easy way meant to include kids with sN wherever possible, even though it might sometimes involve a little bit more effort.

They weren't actually directed at specific people on here.

Once again. .projecting and being bitter and nasty.

Conscience is a neutral word. If she makes decision and is happy with it then good for her.

You definitely are projecting. I'm not meaning any of these things you are saying. And you are angry about having been bullied..rightfully so..and being angry at me..even though I never advocated inviting bullies even once.

Nothing further to say to you.

So bitter nasty and projecting. Thanks

Don't patronise me Fanjo, you forget we've been in similar discussions before and you do very well with the passive aggressive technique.

Good, discussion over.

Yes. Bye

"And relating it (as someone did) to people in an office - if you worked in an office with 20 other people, would you really invite 19 of them on a night out (an organised and paid for night out, with written invitations handed out in the workplace) and leave out the one you didn't like?"

Maryz - if one of my colleagues had been bullying me in the workplace over months or years, I certainly would not be inviting them to my party. I would be tactful, and ensure that the invitations were not given out in the workplace, but why would I want someone at my party who had deliberately made my life a misery?

People have referred to excluding a bully from a party as 'bullying'. It is my understanding that bullying is not one single incident - ie. if a child thumps another one, that is wrong and should be dealt with, but it is not bullying - bullying is a sustained pattern of behaviour aimed at the victim - whether that be physical, psychological, emotional, verbal, exclusion or whatever.

So, in my opinion, it is not bullying, if you exclude one child from a party - if it is one, single instance of unkind behaviour from the victim towards the bully, it is not bullying, even though many on this thread are clear that it is unkind and wrong.

I look at it this way. I imagine a set of scales - on one side is the bullying behaviour, and on the other, one single thing done in retaliation.

I was bullied relentlessly, from the age of 10 until we all left senior school at 16 and went to VIth form college. If I had said one thing that was equally unkind as the things that were said to me by the bullies, would that have weighed equally heavily on my side of the scale as all the terrible things that were said and done to me did on the bullies' side of the scale?

I don't think so.

NC for this.

Many years ago, my DC asked for a 'big', ie; whole class party. It was either Y2 or Y3. DC had never had a big party before. when it came to issuing the invitations, there was one child DC did not want to include. This child had been physically violent to my DC ever since Reception, no SN. I insisted we could not exclude one child, so DC reluctantly invited this child. The child ruined DCs party. Food was thrown at other children, some got kicked and punched. Attempts to call the parent failed ( this was before most people had mobile phones) and even though one of the adults who were helping out, assigned themselves to this child, the party was spoiled.

The child continued to bully mine throughout primary school, with the attacks getting more and more extreme until the school suggested I call the police!

The effects of this bullying on my DC have been appalling. Not able to trust their peers has had a massive impact on their ability to build friendships until very recently, actively avoids social situations where there are large numbers of people, and self harming when at secondary school. Thankfully, we were able to access the right help and DC was able to go to university and has been very successful academically and is beginning to make a few friendships with people not associated with the past.

If I could go back and do it again, I would absolutely listen to my child and exclude that child from the party - the damage that person caused has been so great. And before anyone tries to tell me that the child must have had undiagnosed SN, no, he was just a bully and as an adult, has already served time in prison for assault.

But what does it mean to do the 'right thing' though?

Does it mean you should ALWAYS invite everyone, child with challenging behaviour or not, just in case said child with a challenging behaviour has some sort of SN?

Does it mean that you should do the right for YOUR child and protect them when you think it's necessary?

This thread is making me very sad and very angry because it's so full of very preconceived ideas that are not related to the RL world.

So child with challenging behaviour = child with SN
Parent of the disruptive child = nice parents who will go out of their way to make it possible for their dc to attend wo being an issue for the other children/b'day child parents
Nice child = child who is NT and should be thaught to be naice by inviting everyone incl the ones he doesn't like/he doesn't play with/is just incontrollable

I have repeatedly tried to say, be careful because NOTHING is as simple as that. You can also have the following things going on:
Disruptive child who isn't invited = a child that doesn't care (because it's not because they have SN that they will be hurt by it. I know a few, incl my dc, who doesn't really care!)
Disruptive child = a child who has never been taught how to behave
Disruptive child = child with very serious behavioural issues that might not be handled by the parent of the b'day child (And yes I also do know some people whose dc are very hard to handle but will jump at the opportunity to have 2 hours of peace and quiet, regqrdless of the issues it can create for the otrher parents)
b'day child is a nice child = a child who has SN, or has an abusive parent, is under constant threat/pressure from a sibling with SN
b'day child is a nice child = a very anxious one that would not deal well with a disruptive child present.

Now I am asking again.
Do we really need to act as if the needs of the b'day child (who might have a lot of issue themselves) are ignored just in case it could hurt a child with SN?
Is it right to always ignore a child with SN and never invite them because you don't know how to deal with it/don't want a child with SN present/whatever is in the mind of the parent?

Imo decisions can only be taken on a case by case basis.
In reality, no one has the whole information (ie why is the child disruptive, how much can the b'day child cope with etc).
Just as parents of the b'day child should NOT assume that disruptive = spoil brat that shoould be taught a lesson, NOR should parents of children with SN should assume that b'day child would have easily coped with the disruptive behaviour.

Until people will finally acknowledge that nothing is clear cut, that in either case, there is a high risk to hurt a child (be it the b'day child OR the disruptive one), then the solution will laways be unfair on someone.
And being the b'day child doesn't make it less unfair if you impose something on them btw.

Lurkedforever1 actually at dd2's school their final leavers trip one child was banned for a single incident the previous week.
Won't go into identifying details but I believe his parents felt it was a fair response.

modifying party plans or inviting the unpleasant child, is a parent putting the feelings of the bully ahead of the feelings of their own child.
No way am I going to teach my child that they have to tiptoe round appeasing someone who is unkind to them!!

Just rtft, lots of interesting developments.

I remember one girl in my class at school, she was a friend of mine and popular, she was also a total madam and very bossy and controlling. My mum didn't like her mum very much I can recall.
She had a big party and left out two boys for no reason (and made it very public they were left out) there was a big hoohah and one of the boys mums came in to school, the teacher said they couldn't do anything about it, it was the mums choice. Loads of mums (including mine) decided to boycott the girls party when they found out about the boys being excluded for no reason (and they didn't like her mum anyway) so less than half the kids in the class didn't turn up because our mums thought this girl and her mum needed knocking down a peg it was a crazy situation! We were in year 6 at the time

You wouldn't think the word bully was overused if it was you or your child experiencing it though would you? Lets call a spade a spade.

Actually, although my children have certainly sometimes struggled with others, usually because neither party is mature and children need to learn how to treat others and conduct relationships, the only real bullying that I have ever come across, both as an adult and a child, is the kind of queen bee bullying that excludes others.

I certainly don't believe that most children don't get invited to parties because they are bullies. They are excluded because they are different or awkward.

It means FanofHermoine that if you can't invite the whole class because DC doesn't like the whole class (for good reason) you simply have a reasonably sized party of those he likes the best.
So simple. They are never equally friendly with everyone.

I certainly teach my children to be kind and inclusive. If they can't do that, no party.

No as I said before I was talking about including the child with sN where possible while still keeping all kids safe as I said. As some people leave kids out because they are scared they will have a meltdown or they are "different".

Yes it must be done on individual basis. Which is what I was saying to you about its your decision. I wasn't judging despite what people are saying. I merely understand it's a hard decision for you.

So much projection here as if I said you must invite all the bullies and hold your kid up as a punchbag.

My entire point is even if kids with SN need more accommodation to have them at parties/more support, I think people should try..depending on individual circumstances. ..and not just invite the easy NT kids as routine. That is the basis of inclusion. It involves accommodation by all parties.

Obviously in some cases this isn't possible and as i said no child should be harmed.

Now I have really had enough of this thread and being accused of saying things I am not saying.

Some people have actually said to invite the bullies. I wasn't even one of them.

Then you're very lucky merrymouse if that's all you've experienced.

I certainly teach my children to be kind and inclusive. If they can't do that, no party

Even if that person was being verbally and physically abusive at school?

Lurkedforever1
“Not that I have the first hand knowledge ( never happened at dds primary) but I'm guessing excluding for behavior from a trip etc comes at the end of a long line of warnings…”

What makes you think that a child not being invited to a party isn't the result of a long line of incidents that the parents have proof of happening?

Mehitabel6
“we are talking about primary”

So no primary child is stopped from going in to the playground or from having golden time because of behaviour?

The truth is with bullying is that sometimes it is not clear if it is bullying.
But a parent should always do what they feel is right to protect their child and allow them a safe space.

DSD (14 yrs old) came to live with us permanently (from over 60 miles away so had to change schools). As we are Catholics, DSD was enrolled in the local Catholic Secondary School. DSD became upset that her new school friends thought it was unusual to live with a step-mother and that I must be like the one in "Cinderella" - the 'wicked step-mother'. It was unusual because divorce and re-marriage was not accepted by the church in those days.

So after 2 months, I said she could a group of 8 school friends over for tea and playing on a Friday to meet the family. (There was no internet at this time.)

She made her list, then added others because 'I can't have A without B because they are good friends'. She started crossing off her chosen friends to try to keep groups together. Anyway, we extended it to her having 12 friends in total because I was impressed by her thoughtfulness. She then asked if she had to have a neighbour's 2 DDs. I asked, "Would you like to?" I also said that I wouldn't count them in her 12 guests. She didn't want them to come because (allegedly) they had bullied her for 3 years about living in an area that was quite deprived. [I have to say here that DH paid more than the expected amount for his DCs. She had her own clothes at our house - we had her for all holidays previously.]

The party evening was great - lots of fun and laughter. We met the parents on drop-off/walking round of the girls, so it gave us all a way to meet when DSD hadn't come through the usual primary school to secondary school system. We recognised most parents from Sunday Mass - so we became included in the parental group that 'hung around chatting after Mass' whilst the girls caught up in a corner of the car park!

Anyway - back to the party ...... The next day I was challenged in my own home by the neighbour/friend. Because my DSD had always played with her 2 DDs since she had spent holiday time with us, she thought her DDs should have been invited also.

I explained that it was a school-friendship party, not a regular party. Her DDs went to the non-faith secondary school, so weren't part of the school-friendship-family-introduction-party. It was a chance for DSD's friends to meet 'the new family' in the school. It was also a chance for the parents to walk their girls to our house and meet us as they 'dropped off/walked round'. It had a specific purpose.

I counter-acted with the times when she had family parties for her DDs. I absolutely understood (as did DSD) that there were times when family social occasions are for family only.

My neighbour/friend and I managed to fix it at that point in time but became too hard to manage long term.

Can I leave you with one last thought:

I was widowed (aged 46 yrs - no birth children) so please enjoy your children and don't find a chance to fall out with other Mums. Bring up your DD to be sensitive and caring and then able to put on her 'big girl pants'. Be light-hearted and up-beat about how friendship groups change. Save your lioness for when it is needed.

Not every situation needs conflict or challenge. I wish I had been wiser when I was 28 years old bringing up a DSD aged 14 yrs old.