to ask why, if it's generally accepted to be the behaviour of a twat, do parents exclude a couple of kids from class parties?

[Chippedrippedandstinking]

Inspired by Lappy's thread, we all agree it's wrong and yet it happens. With flame amnesty, will abuone admit to doing it, and if so, why?
And if it happened to you, did you call the parents on it?

I've only seen it once, the mother was taken aside and an invitation was issued.

This thread is very much focusing on 'bullies', but plenty of children are excluded for other less easily defensible reasons.

I have 3 children MadamArcatiAgain and have been a teacher.
I believe in natural consequences. If a child is unpleasant to you then you don't invite them to a party ( or anything else) - I can't see why you would.
However you don't be so unpleasant that you invite everyone and exclude the one child.
I couldn't teach the hypocrisy that bullying is wrong, deliberately excluding is bullying, and yet this only applies to 'nice' children- it is not bullying if they are 'nasty' children.
Of course children of any age can bully. However we are talking about very young children, on the whole they are under 8 yrs and generally under 11 yrs. people are expecting a level of maturity from them that some adults can't manage. There will be reasons why they bully- hopefully they will be dealt with.

People are so set on 'must have the whole class party' when your child is never equally friendly with the whole class. If you are suggesting a whole class party and ask him to give a list of all their names the first ones will come out in a rush, they will then slow down and the last ones will be a struggle as they try to remember who they have forgotten. The slow down divide is the natural cut off point. No child, even the 11 yr old, is going to reel them off at equal speed. You can be sure that the real friends come first in the list.

Children can be very manipulative and unpleasant about parties- it is very usual to overhear 'You can't come to my party' if a child has upset them . They are after all very immature and learning about how to behave with others.
I would encourage them to treat others as they would like to be treated. Not going to a party that half the class is not going to is not upsetting. Not going to a party when you are the only one deliberately excluded is upsetting.

I think that some adults are set on revenge- 'this child has hurt my child and now we can get our own back and hurt them back'!

Does the bully go home crying? Not sleep? Worry about school? But.might be upset at a non party invite? Attention on BDay child and not them?
Schools really need to get a handle on bullying whatever the reason, get parents involved every time, keep records, they should not empower the bully by deciding blame. They win. Victim loses, Victim wins, bully tries harder. Parents of the victims get angry, their home life and the family home life is seriously disrupted. Bully seen out at the park, in town being treated ... Schools pay lip service to bullying.

We have always invited either the whole class, all the girls, or just a few.

There is one girl in my DDs class who gets on well with DDs 'BFF', and there is a bit of rivalry/jealousy about the relationship between DD and her BFF.

As a result of this, DD has deliberately not been invited to this girls party for 3 years in a row. DD has been one of only two girls in class not invited, and has been devastated each time. And if I sound a bit paranoid about this, I can confirm I'm not just reading things into this, as said child has told DD each year in no uncertain terms, the reason why she is not invited!

Gives me the rage and has made me really think differently about the girl's parents who I have always got on well with and known since girls were babies.

Not the schools that I have taught in. It is taken very seriously and dealt with. They don't however give out the mixed message that it is bullying if a 'nice' child, and not bullying if a 'nasty' child. Exclusion is bullying - full stop.
How can you possibly know whether they go home crying and can't sleep? I expect that they have massive problems of their own or they wouldn't bully.

That is the real problem , Locating. Children use parties to settle scores and some parents collude with this. I expect that the manipulative DD in your case would put on a sweet face and the parents would justify her action, if challenged.

You are being ridiculous when you say young children cannot be bullies OP!

My DD was bullied in reception. She was punched and kicked and pinched. One child, who told the bully off for punching my DD, got her hands around her throat for her trouble. They were all in the toilet together, there was no teacher of TA there to stop it. There were still marks around her throat days later.

The girls are all 20 now, so we are able to retrospectively rule out SN, the child had none!

MY DD felt bullied because she was bullied, at age 4!

They have nice familes, good homes, nice sweet smiles, manipulate/charm adults, turn waterworks on at the drop of a hat. 4 of them have had exclusions in high school, behaviour stamps etc. High school teachers are not emotionally involved as primary, they use facts, CCTV. They arent bothered by the tears. Their peers dont have to put up with them in every lesson, bystanders start seeing the true picture and vote with their feet. They bullies become victims and its harder to change perception when in high school.

IME the DCs that exclude other DCs from their parties are usually the bullies, NOT the other way round.

There is on girl in DDs class who is regularly excluded from parties, and it us definitely not due to her being a bully. It is as a result of her not so advanced social skills - she is not in the 'in crowd'.

I see the same in my DSs class.

All I can see from this threat is that whole class parties are the cause of untold misery! Fine if they really are all inclusive affairs and the whole class get on really well.
It appears to me that they are often used to settle scores, to get back at a bully, to cut out a 'rival' in friendships, to leave out the one who doesn't fit in etc etc.
I really can't see why if there are problems of some sort you have to carry on with the whole class idea.

Mehitabel6
You have obviously only taught in large schools.In many many schools there may be say 5 girls in a year group or even a class. Your child might be good friends with all but the bully.

I have taught in small schools and friendship problems are always far worse! You get a 'big fish in a small pond' causing havoc which wouldn't happen if they were in a big pond! They can be lovely, nurturing places if they all get on but it only takes one to upset the balance.
In that case and there are only 3 girls to invite - I would not call it a party and take them out for the day. Not ideal. However most people on this thread have the normal, at least 12 girls to choose from.

I would say that my DS1 was bullied by his best friend at playgroup, aged 3. DS1 was 4. The best friend liked DS1, and they would play well together for a while, but at some point, BF ended up punching Ds1, kicking him, throwing something at him, pushing him over, or similar. Whenever they got together, DS1 ended up hurt - this was mortifying for his mum, as she and I were friends too. It wasn't just Ds1 who suffered at BF's hands, either - most of the other children at playgroup got hit/kicked/pushed/hurt by him. Other mothers were less forgiving and would keep their children away from him.

As they got older, BF and his family move a bit farther away so they didn't see each other so much, but when they moved a bit closer again, we went to see them at their new house. BF by then had a small brother, not quite 3. I had DS2, who was under 2. I watched small brother of BF run at DS2 and shove him so hard he was lifted through the air before he landed on his back, and obviously cried. Friend was again mortified but did nothing really :(
Ds1 eventually got hurt by BF again, so we left to go home.

Since then, I've not been to their house again, but I did invite them both to DS1's last (7th) birthday party because DS1 wanted him there. Small brother didn't take long to hurt DS2, but we thought BF would be ok - wrong! Ds1 was having a great party, no one else caused any problem, but "BF" decided to hit him on the head with a stick. Friend was again mortified, but too late really. We're still friends on FB but I don't suggest meeting up with them, DS1 has pretty much forgotten about his erstwhile "BF" and I don't want to put DS2 in harm's way by letting him near small brother.

There are no signs of SN, just boys who like to be in charge and will do whatever they like to do that (oldest boy now 6, in school, no evidence nor suggestion of SN of any kind).

Some of you may disagree that it was bullying, but I believe it was and I'm glad that DS1 no longer asks to see this "friend" and has other friends at school who are less violently inclined towards him.

Re. the situation of excluding 1 child - no, I wouldn't do this. If there were a particular child I didn't want to invite, then I would reduce the number overall so that at least 1/3 of the class were excluded, not just 1.

Why should kids have to have someone who's bullied them or not been very nice to them, just for the sake of the other kids feelings

Because a bully can invite everyone except the bullied child.

I think if you don't invite the whole class then don't give invitations out in school.

I don't think it matters where they give out the invitations- children know.

The bully isn't going to have many friends to invite. If he does try the whole class then the whole class is not going to go.

To add to what mehitabel said about bullying, at dds school I've noticed there's been more than one parent claiming their child has been bullied at various points by different 'bullies', at one point dd was accused by one girl and her parents. The reason the school can't deal with it as the parents would have liked is because it wasn't actually happening. The 'victim' in the several cases I actually know of was often the instigator, or at least equally responsible and just happened to do a wonderful job of crying first and loudest with doting parents who refused to accept their child was anything but faultless. I'm not accusing anyone here of lying etc or dismissing actual bullying. But schools can't just dive on the 'bullying' because I bet at least half the time the 'victim' is no such thing.
I don't think anyone is saying sn= can't be a bully and you must invite them to be pc. But to be fair I can think of at least one child who if they did/ do hit, be 'mean' it would be with no more malice than a toddler, and other children (sn & nt) who are perfectly capable of understanding full well what they're doing. I have more sympathy with a child acting badly in the heat of the moment than one who calmly plans beforehand, whether sn or nt. And under 8 I imagine most fit into the former category.

Mehitabel6

Schools also exclude, both internally and externally, they have clauses when organising trips that state that children that misbehave will be excluded from the trip. Is this also bullying?

Agree lurked. The word 'bully' is over used.

Schools have a code of practice and they have to follow it. Exclusion is the last resort at the end. Excluding from the trip is also a last resort and very rarely used. They will make sure that the teacher has the difficult child. Having only last month worked with a school with a very difficult class, when they were out for the day, it was lovely that it was all inclusive with plenty of helpers and almost one to one with the difficult child. Everyone had a good time.
I really don't think that you can compare a school having made the reluctant decision that they can't manage a child with a parent deciding to deliberately exclude the child without trying other possibilities- the easiest being a smaller party.

Mehitabel6

Schools internally exclude for the wrong hair style, clothes, shoes. It may be a policy but it isn't that far removed from children excluding for the same reasons.

Exactly, dd aged 8 or so asked me if her and one friend that regularly argued with each other were bullying each other ( no accusations on either side, her parents, school etc felt the same as I, that both were as bad as each other and neither deserved any sympathy) purely because the impression she'd picked up in the playground was that bullying = falling out, over and above anything school taught them about actual bullying.

I think that you are talking secondary there Boney- we are talking about primary - mainly the under8's who have whole class parties. A 4 yr old is not going to be blamed for a parent sending them inappropriately dressed.

Not that I have the first hand knowledge ( never happened at dds primary) but I'm guessing excluding for behavior from a trip etc comes at the end of a long line of warnings and plans to change the behavior, behavior that they know beyond all doubt has actually happened, rather than a week before the teachers all standing around suddenly announcing haha sucker you can't come because you Tom told me you snatched the ball 4 weeks ago and he thinks you tripped Molly up on purpose.