to ask why, if it's generally accepted to be the behaviour of a twat, do parents exclude a couple of kids from class parties?

[Chippedrippedandstinking]

Inspired by Lappy's thread, we all agree it's wrong and yet it happens. With flame amnesty, will abuone admit to doing it, and if so, why?
And if it happened to you, did you call the parents on it?

I've only seen it once, the mother was taken aside and an invitation was issued.

My DD was bullied to almost having a mental breakdown, this girl singles her out, made fun of her, took away her friends at every opporunity, excluded her from events .. it has taken 12 months to rebuild her from a sobbing non sleeping stressed not going to school child who trusted no one, back to being DD. Maybe, just maybe if teachers understood the severity and impact a bully has on a child they might just handle things differently AND maybe if they helped the bully change their ways they wouldnt now be friendless in high school. If y6 parents dislike y6 bully ... then you have failed that child. Parents have no input into the bully their actions or outcomes, you do.

chipped I think your comment about wheelchairs and tubes very insulting and totally unnecessary. The argument was around the behaviour of a child with special needs. Wether that child is a wheelchair user or not is irrelevant as far as I can see.

I'm really uncomfortable with the number of small children being labelled as bullies on this thread.

We're talking about whole class parties so presumably all these children referenced are about 8 years old or younger.

I would never call a child that young a bully. I talk to them about their 'bullying behaviour' but that is a very different thing. All young children are capable of bullying behaviour but I believe it is very rare that you get an out and out bully of that age. I'm not saying it never happens but there are so many people saying it has happened to them and/or their children and that cannot be the case for all.

In my experience, children under 8 who are displaying bullying behaviour are doing it for one of three reasons:

1. There is something wrong with their home life - either their parents are bullies and are teaching their child to be the same way or their home background is unstable, upsetting or difficult in some way.
2. They have special needs, whether diagnosed or not.
3. Another child has treated them that way and they are passing it on (or back to that same child)

Most do it for attention, lack of self control, anger, not being taught social skills or empathy...or because they get away with it. It gives them a thrill. It makes them feel important.

*Excluding one child is bullying. Full stop. You can't say it depends on the child- it is bullying if they are 'nice' but not bullying if 'nasty'.

Not when the solution is so simple- have a smaller party.*

Why the heck should you build your party plans round the sensibilities of a child who hurts/ is unkind to your child and most likely, other children too?
Do you have children Mehitabel ?

I forced one of mine to invite a kid who was bloody awful to her because there were only ten girls in the class and it was the right thing to do. That bit me in the bum when a few months later she asked all 8 girls and missed out DD telling her she was C-list. That was primary school.

This year in secondary I find myself having similar problems...
Me: you hang out with a b c d now, but e f g h asked you to theirs so you have to ask them back, it's reciprocal, it's fair. That leaves i j k l ... you sit next to i in science, she'll be upset. j didn't ask you to theirs so probably won't be that fussed. But that means two have been missed out. Is that not unfair?
Her: Shan't bother having a party then.

Pupil k has emotional and behavioural issues. This has included threatening to cut DD with a knife, calling her fat and ugly and trying to hit her. These are teenagers so asking a parent to stay at the cinema/pizza place is just weird, plus k's mum not approachable (have met her twice).

It is a bloody minefield.

Out my three, one is not that popular, one is somewhat boisterous. They have had to accept that they are only responsible for their actions, not the actions of others, and sometimes life just ain't fair.
Did my third have a party? Yes, and discreetly gave out invites to most of the girls, but knowing some could not make that date they did not get invites (so it looked fairer than it actually was). Did I force her to ask k? No, I didn't.
The knife threat did it for me.
Plus my kid has to put up with boisterous (undiagnosed) younger sibling on a daily basis. So her sister did not go either.

Genuine rather than goady question to parents of children with individual differences...

If your class had a gender divide which was small. If your child only wanted friends of their own gender. If one of this small divide had been causing your child grief for a whole year because of their differences: would you still invite them?
(you cannot say pick the other gender as child doesn't want to, you can't say pick fewer kids as the ones you are asking might not come anyway and it's only a third of the class, you can't pick kids outside of class as there aren't any to ask...
so given the one not being asked becomes the only one in that gender split not going BUT has made life hell for your child because of his/her SN...what then?)

Sally I get where you are coming from but it is an impossible job. E.g. You are trying to support a child who frequently witnesses domestic abuse, disruption at home, no emotional support from family etc and you're right ...it's often about attention (because they get none at home). You put so much in place to help them with their behaviour and other parents make it so much more difficult. Report your concerns to teacher then let them get on with it. I get constant demands for kids toebe hung strung and quartered and it doesn't help.

I wish I could say I had only read it on here but when I was a teaching assistant I experienced with 4-5year olds. Only 12ish children in the class, twins having a party and chose not to invite one child from the class because he was 'naughty'. Thankfully said child was off poorly the day the invites went out and the day the party took place, so hopefully never knew but it did make me sad for him.

My children usually have small parties of 7 or 8 friends at home.
They have never been invited to 7 or 8 parties in a year. But I only know that because I know I haven't bought that many presents. I've never counted until I read this thread. DCs have never mentioned being excluded or wondered why they haven't been invited to Xs party...that is just how things work out. Are parents really monitoring every party held by any child they know and checking to see who and how many have been invited?

It isn't just excluding the bullies though. What upsets me is parents excluding the child who is "different". In my son's class there is a fairly severely autistic boy. He head bangs and cries and my son is learning that this is how the boy is, that people are different and that his brain works differently. If I invite the whole class I expect to invite that boy.
That boys' parents can say no if they think it would be too much for him but how dreadful not to ever be invited to a party because you are a bit different, be that autistic, overly quiet, deaf, the only girl in a class of boys etc.

I wouldn't care - my DD had problems for 2 years with some nasty boy so did not invite him to her last birthday party. Funny though because of where the party was (it was something he liked doing) he was up her backside for weeks asking why he wasn't invited (we were limited on numbers so he wasn't alone in not getting an invite).

Her response ... "well given you have told me every day for 2 years that you don't like me and that you are horrible to me on a daily basis, I am not quite sure why you think I would invite you? I would hardly invite somebody to my party who doesn't like me would I?" ... she said it in a calm matter of fact way, just stating the obvious. He pretty much left her alone after that albeit the odd niggly occasion.

I couldn't have cared less who had an issue with it - the mother never said a word to me. No mother in their right mind would invite a child that is horrid or bullies their own child to their own childs party. I don't judge anyone that does but for me, it would be a no and if they were the only one not invited, tough shit!

Nope perspicacea I don't keep a spreadsheet But if my kid has only gone to four in a year full stop, then I know who the inviters were and rightly, or wrongly, I insist she invite them to hers as she accepted their invitation. For me being reciprocal is fair. (Which is sadly why one of mine does not do playdates right now as I cannot reciprocate atm) Sure some other mums are not as tit-for-tat as me.
I did get hacked off at the kid I mentioned before with her bloody c-list comment, not because she chose not to reciprocate okay maybe a little because of that but rather she rubbed DD's nose in it. That was spite.

The 8 or so kids that come to ours but don't invite to theirs, I don't care what they do as long as I don't know about it
The other one who didn't ask DD (pupil j in my last post) DD found out by mistake cos she and a friend went to the cinema on the same day, not knowing j was having a party. Then, to make matters worse, the dad made DD and friend sit with them, even though they had not been invited and had bought their own tickets. He probably meant well. The kicker was both DD and her mate had asked birthday girl to their parties a couple of months before They were 12 so I guess at the age when friendships fluctuate on a daily monthly basis. So j stuck in my mind for the factor. I have had that happen too with another one of mine. Turned up to a publicised event to find acquaintances celebrating a kid's birthday, unbeknownst to me obv or I would have avoided said event like the plague. It was awkward. I felt like a bloody gatecrasher when it was complete fluke, they felt bad. I was the sodding elephant in the room. They had a conflab in the loo. Mum apologised to me. Made me sit with them. God, am cringeing. Only nice thing was all went over DD's head and she was happy to see her "friends". Mum even gave her a party bag. Still cringeing.
I was there like a bag lady (literally with a bag of magazines I was going to read while DD did the events). How was I to know the Mum would use a public event as a birthday celebration (clever though). Eeeee.

I agree athrawes if you are inviting the whole class it should mean everyone but its also dreadful that some parents, the ones who aren't inviting the whole class go out of their way to invite the child with SN even if they aren't particularly friendly with their child because they think its the PC thing to do. I would rather my child never went to a party if the only invites we're out of pity or to make someone feel righteous. I think this is probably something that happens more with a visible disability though and not linked to behaviour as such.

My DD hasn't been invited to some parties over the years and it never bothered me tbh. It was one less present to buy. Of course I worried that it was something she had done but I assumed it was numbers, or that she did not get on with child or something like that. I like to think if she had bullied somebody I would have heard about it! It never bothered her not being invited so it wasn't an issue.

As in my previous post, I don't believe inviting the child who bullies your child to their party. Sod feeling sorry for them, inviting them doesn't mean they will be any nicer to your child then your child has a miserable party because you bowed down to pressure of what other people think.

I'm not sure if your last post proudmummy was just a general post or in answer to my last post but what I said about the pity invites and feeling sorry for a child was more to do with personal experiences regarding my daughter who is a wheelchair user. Things like 'oh we must invite poor baby pig, bless her' not because she's nice or good fun but just because she has such an awful life

OMG MrsMummyPig most certainly not!!!

I must have missed your post amongst others. My view was about excluding bullies, not anybody else!

Heavens I'm so sorry you thought that :(

I'm sorry to hear of your experiences with party invites & your daughter. How awful for you ((hugs)). I cannot believe people would invite her out of sympathy, rather than basing their invite on what a nice girl she is. As far as I'm concerne the w/c has nothing to do with it - she's human and should be taken for who she is. Hugs xx

Grays and fanof you are both too defensive and paranoid.

No guilt trip being laid on.

It's a pretty difficult issue and obviously you would feel bad about leaving the child out I imagine, if you have been there.

But clearly it's a dilemma given your NT child's needs.

Every situation is different depending on the children involved which is why the decision is entirely yours to make.

I have no issues around this. My DD is in special school and party invites are not relevant to her.

I suggest that you have large issues round this that you are taking out on me.

No need to be quite so nasty.

My post was mainly aimed at fanof.

But grays..I have not once said you should invite a child who bullies and upsets you.

In fact I have said that kids must be kept safe,, on more than one occasion.

I think that you too are taking some issues out on me here, unfairly.

I sympathise, having been bullied, but it's not fair to project all sorts on to things I am not saying. You are doing it to others too. Not fair.

I mentioned the word "conscience' not "guilty conscience".

It is obviously a difficult situation if you have an NT child and one with SN and you need to make own decision.

I am intrigued to hear that 8 year olds cannot be bullies. What would you call a child who every single day, from age 6 onwards throughout the entirety of primary school, singled out the youngest smallest person in the class, and pinched, hit, kicked, spat at, and threw stones at them? Who only ever did this to people smaller than them, never the handful of bigger kids? Who lay hiding in wait to jump out and attack them? But as soon as any teachers appeared acted totally innocent? I'm sorry, but that sounds more like bullying than special needs...you can't know about the bully's home life of course.

But why should the victim of this bully either be forced to endure the same behaviour at their own birthday party, or be banned from ever having a large party through almost their entire primary school? The victim in this case became school phobic, due entirely to fear of the bully, needing to be dragged to school every morning, vomiting several times en route due to sheer fear.

And that is why I was never allowed to have a large party as a child. Because the thought of that bully reduced me to a vomiting shaking wreck quivering in the corner. And my mum subscibed to the "can't exclude one" theory. So I was punished for being a victim. You have no idea how unjust that feels to a kid.

I talked earlier of inclusion of kids with behaviour which is more challenging than usual needing people to make allowances.

I said repeatedly other kids should be kept safe though. That is sum total of my posts on this thread apart from not wanting to make the call for other people in their particular life situation.

So please no.more talk of me saying any other random stuff about allowing bullying or giving guilt trips.

Unless you are saying all kids with SN are bullies.

Can't sleep now.

In case the comment about cans of worms was meant to imply my DD was a bully or aggressive or something..she is the gentlest child ever.

Thanks for the hugs proudmummy
You don't need to apologise, I just wasn't sure if my post came across very clear and was really just clarifying that I meant it to be about physical disabilities as opposed to bullies.